How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[Infantry Grunt]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Chad,
Thank you for your comments. I really appreciate all of them.

To all,
I am glad that there are others out there that share or partially feel the same way that I do. I enjoy reenacting since I started it years ago. Reenacting motivated me to further honor veterans by enlisting in the military. This is a hobby that it should be fun and enjoyable. One of the goals of the hobby (whatever war) is to honor not only the vets, but those who where effected by war. Thanks to all that honor vets from reenacting, volunteering to help vets, or just thanking one when you come across one.

[JimKindred]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

David,

You bring up a very good point. Prior to my time in El Salvador I was very passionate about my participation at CW events. I returned in 1989 several months before the 125th Franklin event and while at that event I realized my attitude toward reenacting had greatly changed. I found it very hard to take the combat aspect of it seriously as well as those portraying officers few of whom actually understood what being an officer was all about. For some reason it had all the makings of nothing more than a game played by people who had no clue of what war was. Following that event I hung up all my Civil War gear and did not pick it up again until the first Raymond event which I believe was in 1998. I still could not put the seriousness back into the “combat” side of the event; it was nothing more than play acting by a script. Living histories I did not have a problem with just the play acting that goes on at public events during the battle episode. It just seemed so hokey.

Here is a couple thoughts before I ask the question. I started reenacting a year before leaving for basic training back in 1998. Since 2003, I have less of a desire to go out and protray a CW soldier at an authentic event. I'd rather hang out at a farby event and relax with old friends from my original unit. Their version of progressive reenacting is sleeping around the camp fire with the coolers in a tent nearby. I know that it isn't right, but I just don't have the desire to go out in the middle of the night and pull picket duty or getting up at o'dark thirty for whatever duty we have to pull.
I still haven't changed my mentallity for making sure I have accurate gear and cloth. Just changed in what I want to do at events.

Have any others have felt that they have a less of desire to do the hardcore/progressive style of reenacting since mobilization or even since joining the military?

[whitewashedreb]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Wow, what a deep subject.
I think that maybe having military experience, often leads to certain biases, on how you deal with reenacting. I have seen some that don't want to do this or that. They have spent thier time doing that. I find inspections to be very much to my disliking. There are those that find sleeping on the ground, eating bad food, and a myriad of other little things like this. All this is not rooted in reenacting, but the things they did not enjoy in the military.
I have also found, as I get older, the heat effects me more. I find some of the activities in the summer not very enjoyable. This might also have some link, to prior heat injuries, suffered in the military.
Military service also effects the standard of reenacting leadership expectations. The thought is often, I followed idiots because I got paid for it. I am not going to follow one in a hobby. I expect you to be just like the best leaders I ever had. If your wearing more rank than I am. You better have more knowledge and capabilities than I do.
Honoring people is my motivation? If I ever said that and meant it, lightning bolts would strike me dead, for telling a fib.
Nobody wants to sound like they are wierd. There are many things that reenactors do, that are not considered normal, by the average person. The concept is the same as buying that super fast jet ski, those wonderful golf clubs, or any other material needed for pastimes. The things we buy are not of the common ilk. I don't think the average person cares, if your coat is of material dyed in period dyes, or is of thread dyed in modern fashion before weaving. That type of discussion is only something reenactors find relevant. Those are the type of things that make me say, yeah right, when people talk about honoring as thier main motivator.
I think many enjoy the military aspect of the hobby.
It is a fantasy military where you only have to do what you want.
No one gets killed on purpose.
You get some "war" stories from it.
It also fulfills that all American need to purchase things and have a respectable collection. We have that taught to us at a very young age.

I don't question much of why I reenact. I have been doing it since 1977. It has been part of my life. I just know it something I enjoy.

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Very interesting perception Martin.

With the heat injuries I also find myself more aware of my water intake in order to avoid that. I am more aware of the need to hydrate since the military, and use that training to stay safe.

I don't know my main motivator in reenacting. I think it's mostly escape. I can escape the real world for a weekend, I can escape the nagging girlfriend, I can escape my boss, my cell phone. It is is better than most vacations for me, because I can really de-tach and unplug from most of society, surround myself with like mind folks (like minded in a common interest in studies of the past, antiquing, and often sewing)

Immersions are the best because you can take on a persona as well.

So to me the escape may be the best part but, it remains an outward expression of my internal need to keep the memory of warriors in the past, and their sacrifices alive in the minds of society. And now more than ever I understand that. I want to keep their memory alive, in hopes that when I am long gone someone will keep the memory alive of my friends who served a cause they thought was right and did not make it out of their service alive.

So many who have never served dismiss this as part of "what you signed up for" sure they read a statistic in a new paper and think what a shame or whatever they think.... I don't think a headstone is enough, and that's why I do what I do. I'd escape into something else if I didn't have the respect for the dead and love of history that I have.

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Thanks Jim for your post, and for validating my feelings about the hokeyness of the "battle"

[whitewashedreb]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

The battle---that is always an interesting thought. Why do we do these? I started doing them, cause they were fun and it stimulated the senses. The sight of large masses of troops, clouds of smoke and a tiny glimpse of what the war might have looked like. The smell of powder. The sound of commands and simulated fire. Exciting!!
Well at least for the first few years. It becomes as anything else. Boring with repetition.
I was attending a NPS training week for interpreters. It was from one of the top interpreters in the Park Service. He had a new thought that I had really not been exposed to. Is this all smoke and mirrors to get the average Joe to pay attention to history?
We all know that the "combat" of any reenactment is never going to compare to any real action. It cannot produce the fear, gore and emotions.
It can draw the average person to a place where the war is like a TV production. It becomes the program of the moment.
That is when the educational aspect becomes the focus. You have created the atmosphere for learning.
That gave reenacting and living history a real meaning for me. I don't believe I really understood what it could be until that moment.
I stated earlier that I don't do this for the "honor" aspect. I really do it, because I enjoy military type activities. I have since I was 4 or so.
I utilize our ancestors actions as a lesson to the average person. Following that statement of, if we do not know our history, then we are doomed to repeat it. This may be a form of honoring, that I never even thought about.

[JimKindred]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Moderator hat on -

Let's ease this thread back more toward the original topic, for the most part this thread really only involves those of us who have been in the military.

Moderator hat off. :)

[whitewashedreb]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

I retired from the National Guard 2 years ago. I spent my 5 years in the Regular Army as a 11C, 1981-86. I got in the Guards after a 5 year break, became a 91B. They reoranized and became a 77L. I did my 20. I am not one to wave a DD214 around. Enough credentials to qualify as a person that served?
I often slip into NCO mode. NCO's lead, they set the atmosphere. I was typing with the thought of, guys, there is no way on the planet that any of this can compare with your real experiences. Instead of trying to bring it into the realm of what you know, what can we really do to make this meaningful to you?

I also knew it was going alittle out of the lines. I apologize.


I recently was dealing with a guy that had been discharged. He got his knee wasted by an RPG in Iraq. They rebuilt it, but it isn't perfect. Anyways on with the story. His impression is a mess. He wears everything really wierd. I start talking with him.

Can you do everyone a favor and fix your stuff? It is driving a bunch of us up the wall.

What? I wear like I did in "real" combat. We wore our stuff in a manner that worked for us.

I know that you did. From the research that I have done, they didn't wear it like that, in the army we portray.

He fixes it. He mumbles a bunch of stuff that I didn't really want to hear. It isn't great but it is better. He snaps is that better?

I go, well it is a start.

In this case, the only thing I can see that helped him, was that he corrected it, even if he didn't want to.

I would think that maybe this is one of those, depends on the moment answers.

[JimKindred]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Martin,

My post was not aimed at anyone in particular so rest easy. The thread was beginning to creep away from its original intent several posts back.

[pbhatfield]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

I have not been able to respond for a day or so, but it appears most are saying they do see some kind of higher element to this hobby that helps their impression. I appreciate the thought process here. If that is so, and I make no apologies for my views, (nor should anyone else - honest disagreements can teach us alot) my thought is that Vets , particularly those with combat exposure who also reenact, really should have some insight on the matter - what I hear coming from these recent posts is a sense that Vets should have higher standards, and possibly some higher call or duty, if you will, even if it is just having fun - teaching, etc. . I have to agree so long as it is an honest, accurate representation of history.

If that means some of us may become less tolerant with blatant 'farbs' or those who knowingly misrepresent or mask historic truth, it is fine by me. If one insults by rasing an honest concern, or stating an observation believed to be fact, that will have to do if it helps us protect history in a truthful and accurate way. As I noted many posts ago, the majority of those guys know they are doing it wrong and do not care. In that sense, I believe we can and should try to not only portray but to protect the history from misrepresentation, and if it offends, them, too bad.
Just some ideas to think on. I have to punch out of this thread gang, and get back to real life. Work and wife duty call. I will try to peek in and see where you goes.
Cheers
Phil 'recovering thread hog' Hatfield

[Johnny Lloyd]

Does price hurt your authenticity?

Gentlemen-


After having numerous discussions with fellow authentic hobbyists/progressives and "hardcores", I have heard a common reoccurring theme. This theme is of price of authentic items from -some- progressive vendors. This doesn't refer to any particular vendor or any vendor on this site despite what you -might- want to read into this, but to a group feeling I know others reciprocate time and time again in numerous group discussions.

Now here are the disclaimers before the discussion question:
1) NO excuse for knowingly buying "farby" stuff. Everyone on here knows this already, so I won't bore you with that one. Just so you know where I'm coming from and how I personally feel and know you feel too.
Duh, that's why we're here.
2) "Good" purchases are worth putting out extra money for in the long run- no use in buying junk for the short-term or might fall apart in the long haul. If it is darn good stuff at a darn good price, then put out that little extra money for it! Significant other's opinions about the pocketbook be darned... c'mon, especially ya'll guys out there, you've heard this one at one time or another. LOL
3) Anyone can see that good purchases with quality construction from an approved vendor are better than anything Pakistanis can mass produce- who don't give a darn about "authenticity" when they use child labor in sweatshops- yep, it happens over there even though we don't care to see it. (Did you think otherwise?)
4) We owe it to ourselves, our fellow reenactors, and the public that happen to be observing us at any living history/battle reenactment to present the most accurate portrayal of life in 1860s America. In a way, we are the "guardians" (ie- those that actually care enough to crack a book to find the real answer and not just accept Hollyweird's "historical entertainment" that eventually becomes "fact" to people that see it enough times over... See also: "Hey dude, since Errol Flynn wore green tights as Robin Hood in the movie, didn't Robin Hood in real life wear them also???") of authentic American heritage and history. (But that is another discussion for another thread. I digress. "Enschulegung... bitte") :wink_smil

Now, with that said, discussion points for this thread:

1) Do you find prices for authentic gear actually discourages you from being more authentic? In this, have you ever found yourself saying no to a product because you thought it was overpriced, but you knew it was what your particular impression needed?
(For me, I just don't do the impression if I can't get the proper gear with my own money or by borrowing certain needed kit items for a particular event from friends. Example: I know I SHOULD have a Springfield rifle for Company X impression, but I have an Enfield, so for a large-scale tactical battle it might be somewhat acceptable, but for an immersion event/living history, I would borrow a Springfield to conform to event standards.)

2) Do you feel some prices have gotten a -little too- expensive for authentic gear?
(For me personally here, only a select few items from a select few dealers -that will not be mentioned on here for tactfulness sake by me but I know ya'll know who they are in your lives- are really overpriced so that I would never buy them at the vendor's asking price.)

3) Do you feel high prices have or are currently discouraging mainstreamers from being more authentic? (I feel it has done so to a certain point... maybe you do too.)

4) Is is possible to get "fleeced" by buying "overpriced" (yep, it's subjective) authentic gear from a reputable dealer or is no price out-of-the-question for authentic gear? Have you felt this done to you for items you have really wanted or needed for your kit?

5) If this condition exists on a broad scale, what is the remedy for bringing down costs, yet not sacrificing true quality for the authentic end of the hobby as a whole?

Final disclaimer:

I only ask these questions because I feel they bear asking to our hobby as a whole and to generate serious discussion on the topic for the better good.

Everything here is non-judgmental and a matter of personal experience and opinion, so please feel free to share yours.

Thanks so much- Johnny

PS- Another disclaimer- The real Robin Hood probably wore a skirt for all we know. HA!

[paulcalloway]

Re: Does price hurt your authenticity?

Nicky Hughes said it pretty well:

2. I obtain the most historically accurate clothing, equipment, and other relevant items available to me. I insist upon the use of proper materials and construction techniques in all reproduction items. I handle my finances in a manner that will prevent financial considerations from limiting the accuracy of my impression.

Source:
Campaigner's Manifesto

Correct materials are more expensive. Correct construction is more time consuming. Authentic items are market driven just like anything else in this hobby, but they are bound to be more expensive because of all that goes into them.

Does that keep some mainstreamers away? Absolutely it does but the alternative is what exactly? Have things made authentically in Korea? Talk to Stephen Osman on that, he's the only one known to have done it successfully.

If price is a concern, and it is for most of us, the Buy/Sell folders are your best friend and so are our Bully Buy deals.

[reb290]

Re: Does price hurt your authenticity?

1) Do you find prices for authentic gear actually discourages you from being more authentic? In this, have you ever found yourself saying no to a product because you thought it was overpriced, but you knew it was what your particular impression needed?

Actually yes, I was going to make an Rd 3 for my impression but when I saw the price of the Wool I needed , I was almost shocked. I know it was from a great vendor but a kid going into high school doesnt have that much money. But I found some great jean wool instaead for an RD2.

2) Do you feel some prices have gotten a -little too- expensive for authentic gear?

I think a little. Like I said before there all good vendors(approved vendors) but I have seen some prices that really shocked me. Next year I might have to work in a mcdonalds to fund my reenacting needs:). But that is my opinion.
I am still having trouble figuring out how to quote someone, sorry.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Does price hurt your authenticity?

Paul-

"Does that keep some mainstreamers away? Absolutely it does but the alternative is what exactly? Have things made authentically in Korea? Talk to Stephen Osman on that, he's the only one known to have done it successfully."

Perhaps the solution to this one is some sort of consensus on what quality should -should- be priced like? Just throwing this one out there... don't know how you can do it. I know... Everyone has their price for items they sweated over while making and how much they think their time is worth to them. How could we do this? Open discussions about price? That might be a can of worms not worth opening...lol

Oh...

Yes, thank you for tremendously helping all of us by the Buy/Sell forum. I recently got a -great- used .58 cal cartridge box from there for only 50 bucks (Thanks Justin- Good stuff!). :D

This service on AC in itself helps bring-down prices for budgeted-individuals. It is a solution in its own way to find quality without too big of price. Big help. Kudos!

-Johnny Lloyd

[AZFarrier]

Re: Does price hurt your authenticity?

Do you feel high prices have or are currently discouraging mainstreamers from being more authentic? (I feel it has done so to a certain point... maybe you do too.)

Dear Johnny
Here is my 2 cents. I agree that part of the reasoning that maintreamers are not more authentic is because of the price. But I also believe that they simply don't want to rough it!!! Being a former main streamer I can say that I initially was sceptical, but what really brought me over to the dark side is the authenticity, of living how they lived, eat what they ate, and basicly experience that life. I consider my self a little of an outdoorsman and intially that is what got me really drawn to this part of the hobby.
So getting to the meat and potatoes of your post here I go. Yes I believe that the prices are a little excessave, but to get around that I have started to change what I have to match the origional. It is per near impossible trying to explain to the wife (Budget Nazi) that the perfectly good mainstream pants I have wont do and that I have to buy another $150.00 pair of pants. To got around that I have resorted to modifying my unofrms to the best of my ability in order to correctly portray a trooper from southern Arizona. I'll be the first to admit that I still wear some main stream cloths and sleep on a mainstream blanket (next on my list), but I believe that the real importance is that I portray that troopers living conditions correctly. As time goes on I will get more authentic cloths, but for now I will live in the first person and resist bringing the Wall tent with genuine US issue beer fridge and generator included.
As for the venders go I know and respect Don Smith (TMD)and I beieve that he a great asset to this hobby, I also know that this is his full time job and that he and his wife have to make a living. I try to give him business when ever I can but what I believe I pay for is Don's many hours of pains taking research of materials I don't have access to or never will.

OK maybe is a Nickle and 3 Pennies worth

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav