How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[Beaner]

Re: Does price hurt your authenticity?

I don't think the original cost of purchasing an authentic kit is an issue. Anyone joining the hobby knows there are costs to start. The problem is requiring multiple coats and uniforms to participate in authentic events. Most people think it's nuts to purchase a uniform that you may use only once. You are closing doors that others will walk through if this is changed.

Dave Prince
4th Texas Co. E

[Clarkbowman]

Re: Does price hurt your authenticity?

I don't think the original cost of purchasing an authentic kit is an issue. Anyone joining the hobby knows there are costs to start. The problem is requiring multiple coats and uniforms to participate in authentic events. Most people think it's nuts to purchase a uniform that you may use only once. You are closing doors that others will walk through if this is changed.

Dave Prince
4th Texas Co. E

As a mainstreamer that is trying to improve my gear Dave hits it on the nail on the head here. A person is already looking at a union and a confederate uniform to go into this hobby but a person’s kit would have to be made up of several uniforms from what I have read to do 6-10 events a year. A good authentic kit will already run about 3 times that of sutlers row. This is an area where I think some of the uniform requirements should be looked at for events. For what it is worth, thats my outsiders 2 cents

[DougCooper]

Re: Does price hurt your authenticity?

I believe most of the main stream reenactors balk at the purchase of authentic reproductions because of a lack of education. A lot of the reenacting groups in my area encourage people to buy their initial gear from budget sutlers. Unfortunately, most of the sutler row uniforms and gear don't last and the recruit eventually shells out more money to replace these substandard items. As mentioned in earlier posts several groups also invest large amounts of money in tents and camp furniture, and then complain about the high cost of authentic uniforms.

I started reenacting in 2002. My initial gear would not be considered authentic. Through my research and recently with the help of this site I've ugraded a lot of my gear. I've purchased a couple items from the approved venders, but I'm constantly searching for a used bargains and have had occasional luck. The cost of some items is prohibitive. A well made frock coat would be a good example. Luckily I don't require this for my group. I would also like to purchase several civilian items, but once again my current budget prevents me from doing this.

John Winkler
Co K 6th TX

Well said. Trading in the Wall Tent, ironmongery, furniture and cooler covers for authentic uniforms and a tree stump is a trade way up.

Enough is not said for bargain hunting - and rat cheer is the place to do it. :D

[DougCooper]

Re: Does price hurt your authenticity?

Johnny,

First, you might want to follow the rules about using names. While 99.9% of us know Jno. is shorthand for John, it still violates the signature rule. Sigh.

My first thought after reading your post was "is there a point to this post?" That pretty much sums up my second and third thoughts, too.

Last year, I watched over $120,000 worth of equipment ease out of The Bunker's front yard to an NPS living history just down the road, and thought about how far we had come from the days of SOYAs to the kind of quality events we have today, and how that dollar figure was insignificant compared to the investment the individual participants would bring to the event.

A couple of hundred million years ago, in the early days of the hobby, people would just buy crap willy nilly based on the "that's so kewl" factor. For the past ten years at least, active participants (these are people who actually attend events) typically pick up the checklist from the event guidelines, and work down the prioritized selection. After feeling satisfied about the #1 and #2 choices, they base their purchases on the elimination of those #3, #4, and worse scores. That's how people buy things. If there is anyone in the hobby who doesn't understand this, please stick up your hand now.

Buehler?

Buehler?

Anyone?

Good.

Now, to get into some specifics:



Just about everything we buy, make, or use in the field is farb to some extent. That's nothing new, and the challenge to find the least farb amongst the choices is also nothing new. The half distance equation has not changed one iota.



Yes, the Scot essay on False Economy applies here. Everyone knows that one by heart.



Yes, I think otherwise, and also know otherwise. Two Pakistani single source items come to mind, and they show up frequently in Authenticist, Campaigner, Progressive, and Hardcore environments. Terry Sorchy recently told me at the Vicksburg NPS LH one of those items is no longer being made, and I really must follow up on that. Come to think of it, a heck of a lot of small brass items are Pakistani and/or Indian make, even on the 2/3 the hobby that prides itself in eschewing such.



That's getting pretty close to the farb mantra of "educating the public," which has creating a booming business for the enclosed tandem axle utility trailer market in recent years.



To cite one example, an impression primarily based on a $2,500 longarm with dubious ammunition sources was enough to send up the red flag. That event was cancelled. Whew. Most of the time, at least on this end of the hobby, gear is often swapped about or borrowed, and the AC Forum classified ads have been a boon to reproduction gear collectors in all six categories.



I remember the intense shame of reading about a certain vendor who claimed to have the most authentic reproduction hardware available on his knapsacks, and I immediately went back to the reenacting room, opened the closet, picked up my old knapsack, held it up to the light, and exclaimed, "Curse you! Curse you, Heywood, for using original hardware! You made farbs of all of us!" About that time a little voice from within the knapsack said, "Get your stinkin' paws off me, you d-mned dirty ape." Hmmmm. Now, there's a mental picture for Curt.



For the past five or six years, thanks to the fire sale here on the AC Forum, folks have been able to buy scads of gear for bargain prices. The thrifty shopper has been able to buy top end gear for less than sutler row prices. Some units have developed hunter-killer wolfpacks....er "acquisition committees" to jump on certain used items as they become available. Many of these items are in new or like new condition, since the original owner bought, stored, fondled, but never seemed to actually attend more than a couple of events, if any. This latter enigma was an epidemic in the mid-Atlantic area.



Yes. Every time I fill up the fuel tank on the trucks, tractors, or car. I can't wait to buy the other half of the winter hay supply, speaking of getting gouged.



Bring down costs? In late 1994 I paid $325 for a coat and trousers from a top end vendor. I wore out the pants and sold them for what I paid for them. (You read that right.) The jacket still has a number of years left, and the cut and construction still knocks the socks off most jeanscloth products in the field today. I can probably still get $275 for it, or $250 on a bad day. Other than that, the Euro is kicking our arse in terms of weapons prices, but the $299 Enfield is still out there on the used market.

This is a great time to be in the hobby.

Should have read this first - well said Mr H.

[1stMaine]

Re: Does price hurt your authenticity?

Comrades,

Well, at the risk of peeing in the well, I'll say this much: Once you are comfortable in your research, once you know what to look for, then ebay can be your friend.

While it is true that a great deal of the items listed are shlock, there are, for those who are willing to spend the time searching, and have a little patience, some nice items to be picked up.

Just this week one of Nick ************'s officer's haversacks sold for &162.00, and it was nearly new. There was one of his blue contract shirts for $60.00 as wel, and one of his sky-blue vests for about the same.

I have seen some really nice hand-sewn shirts from reputable makers there as well, and also some excellent kit from folks just looking to sell some things off, or who are leaving the hobby, changing impressions, etc.

Yes, you need to know what you are doing. It's like any auction or antiques business, it's not for the novice. But having said that, I have been able to acquire not only some excellent repro items there, but some darned nice original pieces as well.

Respects,

[Iceman]

Authentic junk clothing and gear

I feel that this is the place to vent my feelings on authentic gear that is being reproduced vs. what is seen on original clothing and gear.

For me, in observing original clothing, caps, haversacks, etc., there seems to be more items that still exist from the War that would be considered "made like crap" to today's standards for authenticly reproduced goods. I've seen several garments in many different museums around the country where the fabric used for a jacket, or coat, looks more like a blanket or a rug, rather than finely made wool jean cloth. Stitches that are 3 or 2 stitches per inch. Jackets and coats that are just simply civilian garments that are tweeked into military garments by folding over the lapel and adding some brass buttons and trim (something that is also seen a lot in photographs but which I never see done in living history). And on and on. If the real Confederates could have only been clothed and outfitted the way that us living historians are, they very well might have been the best clothed army in history. (Don't take that statement literaly, it's just a point I'm trying to make).

Guys, it's important to wear clothing and gear that is cut correctly, made from proper material, etc., but let's not loose sight of the reality of the situation for these soldiers (more CS than US, but the US had their fair share of garbage) - sometimes you just need to wear clothing and gear that is made like S*#t, but this doesn't excuse farb gear.

[1stMaine]

Re: Authentic junk clothing and gear

Nic,

The problem is that you and I and everyone else is dealing with an extremely small sample to base our decisions upon.

We can look at all the originals we want to, but that still do4sn't answer the question of how representative those items are of what was actually worn during the war.

Most of the originals were used up or burried with their ownders, burned, or otherwise destroyed. I wager that a good many un-identified jackets and coats that still exist do so only because they were too small to issue. I would also propose that some of those rattier, or less well made garments survived because there owners got something better.

Having said that, was there cr@p produced? By all means yes. Lynn Bull once remarked, while showing me an original federal overcoat (that now belongs, I believe, to Dave Jurgella) that were he to make a true reproduction of that coat, no one would purchase it. The top stitching wandered all over the place, and the stitch count was pretty random as well.

However, I always worry about basing our impressions upon surviving garments without being able to consider them in context of who, what, where, why, etc.

Respects,

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Does price hurt your authenticity?

Hallo!

There is no reality; only perception.

"A good authentic kit will already run about 3 times that of sutlers row. "

Last week a bought a pair of "authentic" brown jean trousers off of the AC buy-sell folder for $100 postpaid.

Just now, I visited a prominant sutler row vendor website to see that their brown jean trousers were $109 plus shipping.
I just visited a well-known "authentic' vendor website who lists his brown jean trousers as $260 for hand-sewn and $198 for partially hand-sewn, plus shipping.

Now I could hold the position that $260 is more than $109 sutlers' row trousers. But I cannot argue that $100 for the "authentic" trousers is more than $109 plus shipping.

IMHO, across the board and in general, it is not the reality but the perception told by the person who holds it followed by all those that hear it and believe and accept it as fact.
Plus, if I were a so-called F/M Founding Father, Benign Dictator,or Eternal Colonel- the power of myth is but one tool to keep my lads in my unit... (All I have to do is offer up the $260 trouser website first, and the $109 second. Or better yet, show my new recruit the ad for the "complete uniform" for under $200...

Others' mileage may vary...

Curt

Who once overheard a conversation at an event that went like this:

"If you join (name withheld), you'll have to replace nothing! If you join us (name withheld), you'll may have to replace some things. If If you join (name withheld), you'll have to replace EVERYTHING!"

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Authentic junk clothing and gear

Hallo!

When working from surviving originals, copy the original.

Otherwise, IMHO, this can turn into an ugly head rearing of so-called Militant Farbism and Militant Maintreamism excuses for the use of "clothing and gear that is made like S*#t."

Curt
Whoa Mess

[1stMaine]

Re: Authentic junk clothing and gear

Hallo!

When working from surviving originals, copy the original.

Otherwise, IMHO, this can turn into an ugly head rearing of so-called Militant Farbism and Militant Maintreamism excuses for the use of "clothing and gear that is made like S*#t."

Curt
Whoa Mess

Yeah.... what HE said!...

Respects,

[Charles Heath]

Re: Authentic junk clothing and gear

Nic,

You make an excellent point, and while this thread could degenerate into a justification for clothing that looks as if manufactured by an arthritic, blind, multiple digit amputee with a bad case of tremors, a really great way to salvage this notion would be for you to pick a few of these examples of "Frankenrelics" (a J. Tobey term, per his article on this very subject) and examine those surviving curios one at a time. I'm sure the forum would welcome a series of finely crafted posts about uniforms and equipment that buck the trend. As an aside, we did go through a phase where civilian clothing in the ranks was over represented, but that seems to have sorted itself out.

Meanwhile, a great way to get rid of that just-got-issued-look is to wear the those reproduction garments at the better events. You knew I was going to say this.

[tomarch]

Re: Does price hurt your authenticity?

In general I don't think price will hurt authenticity. "Where there's a will there's a way". One place where it DOES become an issue is when you are going for a very specific impression (for me that means doing an authentic, working impression as an Assist. Topo. Eng'r) Choices frequently come up such as picking equipment over clothing items (any period drafting and or surveying equip usualy means buying original items). One way I've cut costs is thru research in order ot find items I can make. (In my case I've made a Gunters Chain and accourtrements, a plane table , portable sketching board and a couple of triangles). It all just has to come together one piece at a time, but it's well worth the effort and wait.

[redleggeddevil]

Re: Authentic junk clothing and gear

Many, many years ago, a friend and I were idly dreaming about putting together an early war impression entirely clad in shoddy. Everyone we mentioned it to looked at us like we were freaks and...well...we were.

Still, would'nt it be grand to march onto the field at Manassas with sodden felt trousers disintigrating with each step and shoe soles flapping like dying cormorants?

Glorious, glorious!

[paulcalloway]

Re: Authentic junk clothing and gear

Nic, if you don't know John Wedeward - you might want to give him a call. This is his perspective as well and pretty much the M.O. behind the way he produces his blouses.

You're right though - this isn't an excuse for buying farbonzo gear. Authenticity in patterns, construction techniques and materials still count... even if the garment appears hastily constructed, for the reasons you've mentioned.

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Authentic junk clothing and gear

Nic,

One thing to bear in mind is that there is a difference between clothing put together by competent people who are pressed for time and need to turn things out rapidly to fill a pressing national need, and someone who has no idea what he is doing and is trying to make a quick buck and uses the "shoddy goods" argument to justify something that is honestly just a piece of garbage. All too often in our hobby the latter is the case much more common than the former.

A individual wishing to replicate period shoddy practices in construction must first spend years studying originals, and perfecting GOOD manufacturing skills. You have have to crawl before you can walk.

Another thing to bear in mind is that in my experience, a garment that exhibits shoddy or hasty overall construction still will often have superb buttonholes, far superior to what is commonly passed off today. Whether or not the assembly of said garments was done by a different person than the buttonholes is nearly impossible to tell.

A distinction should be made however, between intentionally shoddy contractor goods (felt blankets, logwood dyed sack coats) and shoddy work necessitated by need to turn things out to meet an emergency (low stitch counts, uneven workmanship) or local availability of material. These are two different animals, one with its roots in greed, and the other in need.

The bottom line is that yes, there is a need for shoddy goods in the community today, but it has to be done by someone who knows what they're doing, and not someone who simply wants to turn a buck and should probably spend another few years practicing their stitching.

Just my two cents.


Best,