Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

[JimConley]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

What the statistics may not take into account is that individual research, while invaluable, is subject to differing conclusions. Not necessarily of what gear is authentic in a generic sense, but certainly what is appropriate for given scenarios.

Jonathan,
While I agree that conclusions based upon personal research are open in varying interpretations, I don't know if that specifically applies to the idea behind the thread. If someone knows what uniforms would be specific to particular campaigns, that is certainly vital, but what research does said fellow have to show that his reproduction of that uniform item(s) is/are closest to originals?

I guess what I'm saying is while I understand your point, there still should be some level of consistency regarding patterns, materials, and construction when taking into account originals. Which further exhibits my point that people out there may not be entirely aware of which reproductions are the most accurate and may be buying from sub par vendors that were found on a unit or some approved vendors list.

And thinking about what you've just said, perhaps some of the people that chose the last poll option did not fully understand the direction of that choice.

[J_V]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Jonathan,
While I agree that conclusions based upon personal research are open in varying interpretations, I don't know if that specifically applies to the idea behind the thread. If someone knows what uniforms would be specific to particular campaigns, that is certainly vital, but what research does said fellow have to show that his reproduction of that uniform item(s) is/are closest to originals?

I guess what I'm saying is while I understand your point, there still should be some level of consistency regarding patterns, materials, and construction when taking into account originals. Which further exhibits my point that people out there may not be entirely aware of which reproductions are the most accurate and may be buying from sub par vendors that were found on a unit or some approved vendors list.

And thinking about what you've just said, perhaps some of the people that chose the last poll option did not fully understand the direction of that choice.

Well put.

Jonathan Vaughan

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Hallo!

Sometimes surveys and questionaires influence or generate the answer (s) they are looking for by the way the question statements are worded or phrased...

Having once been a professional "surveyor" and analyist, IMHO only, the key to some answers here lies in how the individual reader/responder "operationalizes" key verbs or phrases for themselves and in their own circumstances, situations, and Mental Pictures:

-working on
-improving
-always looking to improve

For example, what does "working on" mean? I am working on replacing my really poor, bogus Run of the Mill Grade blouse next payday, next month, or when it wears out ten years from now? All are valid "working on's."

For example, what does "improving" actually mean across a F/M/C/P/H/A spectrum of interests and pursuits? Who defines "improve" and in what ways?

For example, what does "looking to improve" or "always looking to improve? mean across a F/M/C/P/H/A spectrum of interests and pursuits? I personally could be "looking" forever and never changing, upgrading, replacing, etc., etc., a single item of gear or piece of clothing- but I am "looking."

I would agree with Herr Jim. While I would like to believe otherwise as it would be an impressive milestone in the development and evolution of the Civil War Community... I
think far fewer lads actually know why an item is best or authentic (ex: in terms of Period raw materials, patterns and forms, methods of construction, documented use as to time and place by the unit being portrayed, etc, etc.) so that they can be educated customers and informed consumers.
OR just buy from maker So N. So because he has the campfire or board/fora reputation for offering researched and documented items.

Regarding: " ...that the 12% of guys that admitted to buying what others say is quality reproductions are being misguided from a supposed majority of researchers."

If the supplier of information happens to be researched and documented as to Period raw materials, patterns and forms, methods of construction, documented use as to time and place by the unit being portrayed, etc, etc.) then they conceivably are not being misguided.
However, in reality IMHO it rarely works that well, and tends to work inversely when moving from right-to-left in the F/M/C/P/H/A Model.
IMHO, even when "what others say" is Spot-On, it still short-changes lads in their own personal growth and development because they do not learn to do the "work" themselves.
However, that might be the topic for another post as many lads want the "correct," or the "best" as instant Shake and Bake and personally are not interested in the "why."
And some might argue that what does it matter anyways as long as the lad is in the best Widget?

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[JimConley]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

And Curt just knocked one over the centerfield wall!

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Gents-

Have some fun on a Saturday afternoon- go to a museum and copy what you see there as best as you can. Research what was appropriate for your area/time/place of portrayal and view original photographs. Watch out for possible "reenactorisms" and adjust your kit accordingly.

Unfortunately, as much as we try, unless you had a video camera there at that -exact- time and place portrayed, we may never know what our forebears -truly- wore, ate, experienced the day of the battle or at the moment questioned. But don't let that be an excuse to stop your researching or get totally sloppy!

Avoid -obvious- anachronisms too!!!

We are all brothers in this great struggle of telling history to an uninformed/misinformed public.

I LOVE this hobby!!! ;) :D
-Johnny Reb

[Hank Trent]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Charles posted the following on the thread that split off of this one, but I'm answering it here, because my reply seems more fitting in this topic.

In the end, I find the guys who were amassing huge collections of in-stock gear during the heyday of the mess (2001-2004) are gone from the hobby these days, because they didn't get out and do anything with their uniforms and equipment. They ran out and bought "kewl" and "suh-weet" stuff, that didn't have much purpose or direction. Those boys never learned how to use the stuff they bought. That would be akin to a golfer with the finest clubs just letting them gather dust in the garage. Why be a repop clothing collector when the object of the hobby is to reenact something?

In the poll, I voted "I have been attending "authentic" events for years and never been turned away, so my kit is fine." Probably not a politically correct choice. But it goes back to the three-legged stool analogy.

I asked on a civilian-focussed email list recently about upcoming events "where you're expected to give the illusion of being someone from the specific time and place being portrayed, for the duration of the event." Only a handful of events were suggested, and it turns out I was already planning to attend all of them, plus an additional military one or two, except for one on the same weekend as another.

Is that really it? Half a dozen events in a six-month period that meet that criteria? And I'm not sensing the opportunities are there in much greater numbers for military impressions.

So I feel like the three-legged stool is about ready to tip over. The methods and materials legs are about equal at most of the events we're talking about, but the man leg is too short in comparison. Why concentrate on building the materials leg even higher, when it's teetering already?

Or, wait, that's not quite the right analogy. It's not so much the legs are uneven on my stool, because I try to keep them equal--admittedly short, but equal. It's that there are so few level places to set the stool, because the floor is built slanted. So some of the investment I might put into lengthening the legs gets put, instead, into searching for a level floor to set it on.

Well, that metaphor is now stretched about as far as it'll go. :) But the point is, it's hard to get motivated to improve the gear, when it's hard to find places to use it the way I'd really like.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[jacobite8749]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

"But the point is, it's hard to get motivated to improve the gear, when it's hard to find places to use it the way I'd really like".

That is about as true as I could ever hope to put it, even more so being a civilian re-enactor again in the UK. Thank you Mr. Trent.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Hank,

Worn plum out as we were, sitting in the gentle breezes under that delicious shade tree in Henry Kyd Douglas' front yard, we grasped the kwan of the hobby in a few short spurts of conversation.

Your post here pretty much summed up the event situation for the military, too. The hobby delivers but a mere handful of events each year well worth the extra effort to attend, but the trend towards the watered down events regressing back to the mainstream appears to be the current trend, at least in the mid-Atlantic. At the other end of the spectrum is the sit on your keister and talk about oh-so-kewl gear 24/7 events, and they aren't all that and forage capful of Saratoga fries, either.

This conversation, and this thread topic, for that matter, isn't anything new. These same thoughts were being debated on Al Aronson's listserver long before it changed hands a number of times. The prime difference between ten or twelve years ago, and today, is most of those people actually attended events. In other words, they weren't keyboard campaigners, and they were in search of something better than they could find in thier own "battle of something local" events in their own neighborhoods. They didn't stop at the gear, but moved on to the next steps. Unfortunately, many of them have aged out of the hobby, and some are now deceased. With the great swell of the baby boomers now come and gone, this isn't a surprise to anyone.

Looking at the numbers for 2006 and 2007, we have about 400 active participants in this end of the hobby, and considering this forum claims about 2,200 active members, that's a fairly low number. The number of very active participants is more like the 200-250 number often bandied about before we started assembling lists of event registrants. Of that last figure, approximately 50 people tend to travel all over the nation attending what they can when they can in search of "that elusive experience." They don't stop at the gear, but move on to the next steps.

Is that really it? Half a dozen events in a six-month period that meet that criteria? And I'm not sensing the opportunities are there in much greater numbers for military impressions.

Yep, that's really it. A few years ago, I coined the phrase "get beyond the gear," and it was considered heresy. Perhaps a more contemporary theme would be "get beyond the keyboard." While this brand of this thread has wandered off from the original "why is our gear worse now than it was ten years ago" theme, I have to say any fool with a credit card can go to the various CW reenacting convenience stores in G'burg and build a darned good kit in a few hours. The real question is what will he do after he buys all those toys. To paraphrase a tag line from one of A.C. Kalmbach's finer publications, " Civil War reenacting is fun."

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Hallo!

"We are all brothers in this great struggle of telling history to an uninformed/misinformed public. "

"Spectating public" or "Reenacting public?" ;) :) :)
(That's another separatre thread...)

Curt
Extinction is the ultimate form of evolution Mess
The Wheels on the Bus Go Round Round Round Rifles

[Charles Heath]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

"We are all brothers in this great struggle of telling history to an uninformed/misinformed public. "

Let's not go there, or even step lightly near the "educate the public" tar pit, because it leads to the obvious question.

Obvious question: If we cannot agree on how to educate ourselves, then how can we expect to educate the public?

The phrase "educate the public" being a pet peeve.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Gents-
I feel we are always teaching ourselves and educating others on what we've learned in the hobby. By this, we are all each other's comrades in this curiously wonderful hobby.

I go out of my way to be nice to everyone associated with living history/reenacting. It makes me feel good and makes others know that they are welcome and accepted around my campfire.

A mainstreamer isn't necessarily an bad thing... they just need to be gently helped toward looking better and getting better at their impressions. No sneering necessary... just offer them the period-correct idea in a nice way or suggestion and many will bite for it on their next purchases (provided personal funds holds-out). I know when I was a mainstreamer in my impressions that I liked it when progressives showed me what their research indicated.

Thanks, Neill Rose... ;)

Even if someone is satisfied with being a mainstreamer, provided they still "have the look" overall at a distance- they can be useful at large-scale events for numbers on the field and in ranks in an attempt to portray a certain battle or large-scale scenario.

Provided they aren't wearing or using -obvious- :confused_ anachronisms or spoiling the fun, then I'm cool with them. (My wife still doesn't understand why I don't have to use a cooler, modern food or anything but a gum blanket to sleep in at an event no matter what the weather! )

Living histories or up-close events with the public should be reserved for the progressives that fellow comrades are the best-informed/outfitted of the group.

Look, it ain't gonna be 1865 again as long as we're living in 2007, so -some- things just aren't made or known anymore due to the passage of time. We certainly can get as close to it as possible. This -should- be the goal of ALL reenactors- to get as close as possible through their own research, but some mainstreamers just DON'T want to improve their impressions no matter how many people gently chide or harshly criticize them. No use in trying to get that horse to drink the water you led him to if he doesn't want to...

And finally, if you are at an immersion event, PLEASE -NO- anachronisms (other than very minor safety necessities -necessary medication, contacts, fixing bayonets/ramming on the field, etc.) to spoil everyone's fun!!! Do your research and obey the event guidelines to attend -these- events! Think about it, that's half-the-fun of an immersion weekend.)

Simple rules... there's my feelings on the subject. Not to judge, but to teach.

Keep it all real :wink_smil -Johnny

[Rough_and_Regular]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

I think it can be both ways. It can be progress if you can capture new recruits and show them whats right. It can also be a decline when a "Mainstream" group shoves a new recruit down "sutlers row" and makes him spend his money on "garbage" Back in the days of the 125th anniversary battles we had little choice in what we bought. Now you have a whole harvest of authentic vendors who are willing to help but i think more intervention is needed. Myself i attend both "Mainstream" and "Authentic" events and i never had a problem with my kit but when i go to a mainstream event i'm looked at with questionable eyes because i do not look like the flashy officer that most mainstream officers look like. I try to set the example and tell the young lads what to purchase and what not too. I always tell them this. "If your serious about the hobby treat it like a marriage do not by a wedding ring that costs the same as your 1 week pay check but by one that costs 5 of your pay checks cause you get what you pay for and the same applies to your reenacting gear"

[DougCooper]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Perhaps a more contemporary theme would be "get beyond the keyboard."

AMEN.

Far from being the boon to education and authenticity and event scheduling I thought it would be 15 years ago, the internet has become an all-consuming virtual hobby for some folks, with more downside than upside, hobby wise, for the rest of us.

Today we are more fractionated and contentious than ever and despite advances in gear, event formulation and research, attendance is in decline. Great events are killed or wounded before they start by naysayers whose second guessing on this and other forums diverts the attention of organizers and attendees. Dual personalities abound, an internet phenomena, and we spend more energy on internet disputes than we do on the hobby itself. Were all these forums to suddenly disappear, we would actually have to pick up the phone and/or meet face to face to solve problems, work on events, etc.

Imagine that.

The more homogeneous hobby of 5-10 years ago could show progress on vendors offering better gear to more people than ever before. Since then, we campaigners have left the big events by and large, which dumbed them down severely while we developed the progressive/campaigner/authentic/hardcore/(insert name here) slate of events. As the researchers and natural educators within the hobby, our departure from the mainstream of the hobby left a big hole that is not being filled.

All one has to do is look at Cedar Creek for an example. In the mid 90's, there were some excellent impressions, both unit and individual, at this event. We did some pretty neat things there and the preservation aspect was front and center. Today, most of us would not be caught dead at the event. The mainstream or worse impressions have not gotten worse. We just removed the really good ones, lowering the average impression.

So impressions have improved, but only in one part of the hobby - ours. Removing ourselves from the mainstream of the hobby has removed the engine of change from the larger hobby. As folks flee the mainstream or worse, they enter our ranks and start over in many cases, and this may contribute to the opinion that we are not improving in our end either. The good news is more folks are coming over.

The other thing we face is that after leaving the mainstream, we naturally face opposition when we try to go back and promote change. Much of the resentment that the more progressive members of the hobby face today did not exist 10 years ago. When we march in to a Franklin or a Corinth, with new ideas and higher standards, some of the mainstream take great offense.

So going back to the original thread that prompted this one - a hardcore living historian decides to attend McDowell after a hiatus of 8 years, an event in which campaigners used to attend in larger numbers. He notes what appears to be a decline in the campaigner end of the hobby when in fact he discovered a decline in the average impression at McDowell - too bad, but true.

Now if one were to attend BGR this year, and compare it to the impressions at RR1 or RR2, I am reasonably certain we have improved much.

The other casualty of all this has been the authentic vendors. Its no secret that the campaigner migration away from the big events has made life much more difficult for these guys and gals. Each has been forced to make a choice to attend the large events and the larger market, or attend the smaller campaigner events and duke it out over a smaller market, until saturation has been reached. On-line sales can only compensate a little. In the old days, at a Cedar Creek for instance, we would attend and drag the newbies over to Chris Daley, Hank Kluin, Joe Covais or even Charlie Childs and help them upgrade their kit.

We don't do that anymore, and so the mainstream washes over Sulter Row without as many good examples (us) to witness for the better vendors and their wares. That hurts the good vendors and ultimately us if folks don't keep buying the good stuff. We are not there to make a difference in person, which is the only place it really works (vice the internet).

The greatest engine of change for the individual and indeed unit impression are the authentic vendors supported by authentic reenactors backed up by upgraded event guidelines. If the vendors are spending their valuable time at smaller events with a shrinking market, or larger events without the leadership from us or event guidelines that demand better stuff, they are not selling their stuff.

...that worries me more than anything hobby wise right now.

From my perspective, based on attending little and big, hardcore and mainstream events over the last 20 years...the average individual impression in the campaigner end of the hobby has improved greatly. The average unit impression has declined (smaller and smaller fractions have meant fewer battalions and even company sized units). This has a corresponding dilution of command and control, good battalion drill and a general decline in the "army environment." The average individual impression in the mainstream hobby has not moved much, except for those folks who have seen the light and come on over.

And honestly, we are partly responsible - we left the party, just when our motivation, expertise, curiosity, craftsmanship, leadership and vendor support was needed most. We fled to the keyboard and the campaigner world. Nobody's fault, and of course our events are more fun and more authentic, but there has been a serious downside in the hobby as a whole.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Hallo!

Amen!

Curt

(But still maintains that... extinction is the ultimate form of evolution, and there is no going home. And we do it both to ourselves.
And sometimes, running a gauntlet, one loses consciousness before the end of the line. Hence, the seeming appeal of migrating to different eras such as WWI or WWII- where the grass can appear greener over the spectic tank.)

[csabugler]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Excellent comments from Hank and Charles
I wish that I could find 6 "good events" every year within 8 hours of here and a venue for horses. But consider I own a horse for reenacting. I break my back maintaining 10 acres of land for horses.My only vehicle is a 3/4 ton Powerstroke deisel to pull horses to reenactments. So in order to justify all that, I go to "lesser quality" events. Or as some people call them, "wrong" events. A lot of years I see more bad events than good. So in a way I am "enabling" that class of event. I suppose we all are. Are we also causing a percieved decline in this side of the hobby doing so?

I don't even want to start a discussion on trying to add something to those events by our attending, etc...

On the topic of enforcing better impression standards,look at what happened to Mike Moore at Corinth for trying to impose mild improvements!

So my point in all this is,who is going to step up and sponsor some better events? The Critters are associated with hosting a lot of good events, I think we do our part.

Patrick