Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

[Coatsy]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Jim C. made a good point with pointing out the lack of authenticity inspections at touted "authentic" events. The recent Vicksburg event was the first event in some time where there was a haversack search. (at least on the Confederate side) I inspected my company's haversacks and besides having the "I've got a bad feeling about this!" as I put my hands in said haversacks I was genuinely pleased. The men followed the simple instructions. I've been to an event where a gent was asked to wear some decent loaner gear in lieu of the sub standard gear he was wearing and it worked! Because....the leadership took the man aside and asked politely and by God it worked! I think the "leadership" of our end, and event coordinators need to step up enforcing guidelines. Yes I'll be the first to admit I was lax at some events that I was part of the planning team. Lesson learned.

Another good point, is I see many chaps with a killer attitude but low funds and it will take time for these good folks to get on par with the others. I understand this and I can accept minor flaws here and there knowing that with some time, usually a short amount of time, that these good attitude folks will get in line with the rest of us. Doug and Jim are right. Get a quality hat as one of your starting items in the quest to achieve Authentic Nirvana. I can recall a gent with a good attitude, a sub par kit, and an atroucious hat....The hat was very awful, and I couldn't help but notice it everytime I spoke with the gent. I hope he has been steered to the Land of Quality hats here at the AC. The gear is still damn important. Knowledge of what you are acutally doing and portraying is even more important. An equalibrium can be achieved everyone! Good gear, sound knowledge, and a killer hat. :tounge_sm

And finally Troy,

The said goober in question at the recent event that Mr. Peterson and Mr. Brown were speaking about was a paying visitor to the park where the event was held at. The goober decided to dress out in a mainstream Federal officer's get up. It was ass and I did not appreciate it. None of us did and we quickly took our leave of him. It is tough to tell a paying park visitor to "Sod off" and not anger the managment. Mr. Peterson and Mr. Brown have been attending very quality events for many years now, and I can attest to this since I've been in the field with them. You need not worry yourself if they are attending the "wrong events" because 9 times out of 10 they are the better events that are advertised on the forum. Georgia first by Gawd! ;)

Sometimes Streamers have no clue, but more often than not they are in a "comfort zone" and know better, but they do not want to take the "Authenticity Challenge". It is there loss because our events are the way to go. (Hell yes I am biased!) As Kiev Thomason stated recently we are "Reenactors" and the other crap is K.O.A. theme camping. (not that I have never been to a Streamy event, because I have with my pards. A majority of the events I attend are the quality ones. I just did not want to sound like a hypocrite)

[DougCooper]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

I don't think that the hobby is necessarily in "crisis." I simply used the term in quotations to reference the severity of the idea and the problem.

And, while I agree with your thoughts behind evolving into this part of the hobby, but what about the guys who have been around for a while and still neglect parts of their kit? This problem is not only specific to new participants.

No worries Jim, I just wanted to make it clear about the use of the word "crisis."

I love the use of the terms "deep and shallow end of the pool" and the 3 legged stool is exactly right :D

As for long time campaigners with marginal kits - I think the authentic event inspection needs to be mandatory - but it needs to be instructive. A guy with a marginal kit may or may not know it is marginal and it is difficult at best to figure that out on the net. Real field experience is always the best way. Once marginal kit guy has been through one of these inspections there will be no doubt in his mind what's what.

[Drygoods]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Greetings all,

What an amazing thread. I hardly know which way to answer since either way, I think that you'd consider me bats.

Now I don't mean to sound fat headed, but I've been doing the authentic route for several years now, and have been in some clubs for over two decades. To be sure, I notice that some folks after a period of time get that "this is good enough attitude and I've always done it this way" mantra. I know that you've all seen this, but even in the old clubs, I've noticed over the past two years that even the old crowd is changing, as they seem to be aware that their old club isn't the same old same old club anymore. If you want change, than I'd suggest lead by example. It's not enough to be authentic anymore; it's more than clothes, gear, and reading a few books. Get out there, go far from home, and attend places that are not at all what you would first consider as best events.

The most remarkable thing that I see what serious living history folks is that many do not travel far or wide. In other words, do more than simply battles or immersion. Get you hinny into a bunch of period homes, walk through forts, sail on a tall ship, hike old trails, and trace your character back at least 10 years of living history so that when you need to talk interpretation you can use your first hand 'been there done that' talk.

The most damaging thing that I've seen with hardcore folks is leaving all the historical decisions of what is period correct left to one person or a small group. Nothing does more damage than the guy who runs things and thinks that he knows it all. That guy who thinks he knows it all is so annoying to those of us who do.:wink_smil

My own view, I'd say that authentics are on the increase. I'm a firm believer that the majority of people in this hobby all wish that they could be in that 'authentics circle.' Not all make it because they cannot bother with the work that it requires. Like any other talent or athlete, it takes dedication to be a champion. Nope, it's only a sliver of folks who continue to work hard all their lives to be good at living history, the percentage may grow, and interest is certainly there, but the compared numbers will still be less than what is left to the rest of the folks in the hobby . Plain and simple talk now; if you want the authentics numbers to get higher or even closer, burn down every farbage sutler, and demand that every new club member go through extensive history training, and be patient with the new folks. Remember your first outfit wasn't that great either, but this time, you can offer to help.

You want to be good at living history, improve the impression of those around you? Easy. Never settle or think that you know enough, read and research all your life, especially primary sources, and take your study of history into as many different directions as possible. The result will give you a great deal of pleasure, a wide circle of interesting friends, and always new places to go with open doors. At my age, I'd say that we have enough youth, so let's find the fountain of smart.:sarcastic

sorry for the long dissertation.

[Michael Comer]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

The authenticity inspection is a good idea but I think it is more often paid lip service than done in my experience. I'd like to play devil's advocate a bit here though.

What happens when there is an inspection and the guy clearly falls short of the standards? It seems there is much inconsistency in how to handle the result of these inspections when they are done.

I have been to some "campaigner" events where authenticity inspections were advertised and supposedly done but there were still anachronisms very visibly present in the ranks.

I think one of the reasons for this is because the organizers, or whoever is in charge of such inspections, don't have the heart to tell someone to take a hike after they have driven 8+ hours to attend the event. I was told just that at one event when a clearly mainstream group with bad kits, modern glasses and other things were present in the ranks and I asked about it. I can understand this and I certainly don't like hurting people's feelings or making them angry, but I also wonder if that is what is needed to make people realize that a campaigner event is just that and standards are standards and will be enforced. Is it fair to those that take the time and effort to better their impression? Perhaps it should be a 'tough love' kind of thing.

I don't say this to get into an argument about how none of us are really authentic etc. So don't start that or Mr. Heath will surely show up with thread lock in hand. It's just something that needs to be addressed consistently if inspections are going to work.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

To address the question at bar...re: authenticity levels.

This is the million dollar question. Where do we stand relative to historical accuracy vs some other point in the last forty to fifty years. Old timers say the hobby was better "back around the Centennial" because they used what was called "war surplus" and what we would now call valuable antiques. Even then the "Texaco Ranger" impression existed at the entry level. Nothing produced today is quite at that low level. On the other hand, the question as stated is impossible to answer because "the hobby" has no known number of members, no national organizational structure, no agreed upon written standards and no set number of events. How does one judge progress with no agreed upon baseline? Well...

In the years since Paul Calloway undertook the Herculian task of producing this website as a forum for those serious participants who wish to "Get It Right" (a Watchdog pharse, but one that certain fits here), "Authentic Campaigner" has grown to 2,200 active particpants. Let's think about that one for a second...I would hazard to say that over two thousand enactors who are trying hard to improve their impressions is probably a historical high water mark for the hobby. Put another way, the "Authentic Campaigner" has produced more good impressions or improved impressions than at any previous point in the hobby. For that alone, Paul Calloway's effort here probably deserves some sort of award. If all that weren't enough, there is more...

While there is too much low end imported garbage in the hobby, there have never been more high quality craftsmen at work producing top notch reproductions. If you want something expertly made using period correct materials and construction, you can get it (today). That was not always the case, especially in the early days of the hobby when you had to make such a thing yourself or make do without it. The hobby is fortunate to have such craftsmen as have been identified here as "Approved Vendors". We have an opportunity to gain insight from their collective expertise. This never existed before, it was all word of mouth.

There have never been more books and magazines dedicated to the "authenticity minded" serious Civil War enactor than now. Civil War Historian is now up to 2,700+ subscribers. Camp Chase Gazette has a Watchdog "section" in every issue for the segment of their readers who aspire to improve their impressions and "Get It Right". Tom Arliskas' excellent Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown is available at distributors like Barnes and Noble. The Watchdog sells (and sells out of) their book offerings like Columbia Rifles Research Compendium Second Edition,(a few remain) The Civil War Musket (ditto), For Fatigue Purposes(2nd ed coming) and "Making Cartridges"(2nd ed coming), with a CS compendium called Wearing The Gray coming soon. I would say never before has more information been available in the hobby than is currently available for the improvement minded, or those who wish to "Get It Right" and have fun doing it. The 2,200 Authentic Campaigners have proven to be a very receptive audience for publications that are in their area of interest and meet their needs.

No single person knows all there is to know, but as hobbyists collectively we are able to do better than we ever have in the past. There are better "immersion" events now. Who among us isn't mildly depressed as we re-acclimate ourselves to the comparative tedium of the 21st century after an event ends and Monday rolls around. It helps me to know there are 2,200 others who more or less feel the same way.

[DougCooper]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

The authenticity inspection is a good idea but I think it is more often paid lip service than done in my experience. I'd like to play devil's advocate a bit here though.

What happens when there is an inspection and the guy clearly falls short of the standards? It seems there is much inconsistency in how to handle the result of these inspections when they are done.

I have been to some "campaigner" events where authenticity inspections were advertised and supposedly done but there were still anachronisms very visibly present in the ranks.

I think one of the reasons for this is because the organizers, or whoever is in charge of such inspections, don't have the heart to tell someone to take a hike after they have driven 8+ hours to attend the event. I was told just that at one event when a clearly mainstream group with bad kits, modern glasses and other things were present in the ranks and I asked about it. I can understand this and I certainly don't like hurting people's feelings or making them angry, but I also wonder if that is what is needed to make people realize that a campaigner event is just that and standards are standards and will be enforced. Is it fair to those that take the time and effort to better their impression? Perhaps it should be a 'tough love' kind of thing.

I don't say this to get into an argument about how none of us are really authentic etc. So don't start that or Mr. Heath will surely show up with thread lock in hand. It's just something that needs to be addressed consistently if inspections are going to work.

Mike makes a great point here - This where LEADERSHIP comes into play. If new guy is coming to his first campaigner event then new guy commander needs to make sure he is up to snuff. Said commander needs to administer tough love way prior to the event so that the inspectors don't have the unenviable job of sending new guy packing or scrounging around for surplus good kit to get him in the ranks.

There are commanders in this hobby who do the scrounging ahead of time and show up with a car full of stuff just in case. That is leadership.

[TKlas]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

The authenticity inspection is a good idea but I think it is more often paid lip service than done in my experience. I'd like to play devil's advocate a bit here though.

What happens when there is an inspection and the guy clearly falls short of the standards? It seems there is much inconsistency in how to handle the result of these inspections when they are done.

I have been to some "campaigner" events where authenticity inspections were advertised and supposedly done but there were still anachronisms very visibly present in the ranks.

I think one of the reasons for this is because the organizers, or whoever is in charge of such inspections, don't have the heart to tell someone to take a hike after they have driven 8+ hours to attend the event. I was told just that at one event when a clearly mainstream group with bad kits, modern glasses and other things were present in the ranks and I asked about it. I can understand this and I certainly don't like hurting people's feelings or making them angry, but I also wonder if that is what is needed to make people realize that a campaigner event is just that and standards are standards and will be enforced. Is it fair to those that take the time and effort to better their impression? Perhaps it should be a 'tough love' kind of thing.

I don't say this to get into an argument about how none of us are really authentic etc. So don't start that or Mr. Heath will surely show up with thread lock in hand. It's just something that needs to be addressed consistently if inspections are going to work.

Michael,

You really described what should be corrected - we need to start clearly upholding published event standards. We all have plenty of time to see uniform standards well before an event via a website or e-mail. If a gent needs to borrow some items to pass the inspection, then that is what needs to happen. Ultimately some items may need to be removed in order to participate. The interaction should be a position one educating about what was incorrect and how to improve for future events. Jim's post was a good wake up call for events to uphold standards.

A second call would be for c/p/h messes and units to square away new comers and existing members so they are ready for the event. I see a lot of throwing gents to the wolves so to speak without any fundamental knowledge of the uniform and equipage, drill, deportment, material culture, and sometimes as Riley pointed out a pretty deplorable attitude towards an accurate portrayal. I think this is where Jim's second post comes in about established gents. Many c/p/h units have standards published on websites and they look good, now they should be followed up on. It takes a team approach and not just one gent trying to change inaccuracies in a unit.

Now for those that may feel intimidated by an inspection, ask the event organizers before hand so your know what to expect. Events I have had an inspection for either hosted by the Hard Heads or ONV have all been positive, informing flaws, and in some cases removing items so individuals can participate. It can be done without making people screaming mad if they know ahead of time what to expect.

Again, great topic and glad to hear others views as well.

Tom

[Charles Heath]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Tom,

Yours is one of the best posts I've read in a long time. Thank you.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

"As for long time campaigners with marginal kits - I think the authentic event inspection needs to be mandatory "

Speaking from a coordinators point of view, inspections are done and often times done without a participants knowledge. If there is a violation of the guidelines, the person is usually pulled to the side rather than called out. Plus, doing an inspection at registration often times means people showing up 'in kit' and with battlefields to tour etc, some guys just don't want to be stopped for a photo op with John Q. Public. That's why it's normally done in line rather than holding up registration. In the WIG, authenticity inspection is left up to the company commanders, but in the end it's up to you the individual to better yourself or face the consequences. We just recently asked someone who had been running around with us Southron's to hit the bricks. We gave him some contact info for another group simply because he had no intention of following guidelines or military practices.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Hallo!

IMHO, there should be NO SURPRISES for a unit or mess when it comes to Newcomers and Newer Members come "event time" or "inspection."

Meaning, if a unit adopts a sponsor or mentor basis for new recruits, the newcomer is guided, formed, molded, beaten into the minimum "unt/mess" standard as he "Goes and Grows."
He knows the unit/mess standards, preferred makers and vendors. He has access to "loaner gear" that is not someone elses' "discards" and upgrade "rejects" from 2-3 upgradesor 4-5 years back that the original owner would NOT be caught dead wearing/using.
He is mentored and guided into what is historically "Right" and "Why it is Right "versus what is "Wrong."
He has support, resources, information, guidance, and answers to questions BEFORE costly or timely mistakes in kit happen that are hard(er) to correct.
He learns the "Culture" of the unit/mess
He develops self-confidence instead of doubt and uncertainty over the quality and quantity of his impression.

But, if all of that came in a bottle, we'd all have it. ;) :) :)

Curt
Heretic Mess

[HighPrvt]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Originally Posted by csabugler

I was recently at a LH w/ csabugler where this happened. It was a good group of guys at a site with a good reputation. A gentleman dressed in what could be generously referred to as a rental costume came up as a "visitor" and then started talking to other visitors. B/c he outranked the rest of us and was cleaner and smelled better (I guess), he got the crowds. This was not an event choice problem, but a poorly dressed visitor and a host site with strong LH guidelines but unclear on the line between being nice to visitors and protecting other's learning environment...

Lt. Coats ordered me to take him prisoner, which I did. I have no idea what the command group did with him.

[Dignann]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Re: Authenticity Inspections

As a consumer of events, I always review an event's website (if it has one) prior to deciding whether I want to attend the event or not. One area that I look at is the uniform/eqiupment/authenticty guidelines/standards. Sometimes, I will often see something listed as a suggested piece of attire or equipment and wonder how or why it was chosen or suggested. I almost never see annotated guidelines or standards.

We consider ourselves historians and frequently suggest to newer members of the hobby that they should "do some research" or "crack a book." I can only assume that when event organizers put together authenticity guidelines or standards, that they have done some research. If so, as a consumer who is being asked to adhere to these guidelines, I would like to know on what information they are based. Also, publishing the sources for this information is an excellent way to educate those who read it.

If I am going to attend an event that has an authenticity inspection, I would very much like to know against what research my uniform and equipment is going to be scrutinized.

Educating and sharing of information with those thinking of attending an event is an excellent way of helping them to progress.

Eric

[JimConley]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

After almost five full days of this thread/poll, the statistics are pretty interesting.

At this particular point, here are the stats:
I am new to "authentic" events, but I am working on making my kit better
23 (13.45%)

I have been attending "authentic" events for years and never been turned away, so my kit is fine
9 (5.26%)

I honestly don't care about improving my kit for this reason or that
4 (2.34%)

I am always looking to improve my kit by buying from the vendors that other "authentics" recommend
21 (12.28%)

I am always looking to improve my kit through what my own research shows is an accurate reproduction
114 (66.67%)

According to the stats, well over half the hobby buys quality reproductions because their research indicates that gear as such. Slightly over a quarter of the hobby is either new or buys the reproductions based on what others say to be good. And, finally, a small minority is less interested in improving their kits.

I have a strong indication that these statistics are false, based on my observations in the field and the amount of research-based posts and topics on these boards versus all the other huha. I have a feeling that some of that 66% should be joining the group that buys based on what others might recommend. Or, if I'm completely wrong in that hypothesis, at least grant me this one: that the 12% of guys that admitted to buying what others say is quality reproductions are being misguided from a supposed majority of researchers.

[J_V]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

What the statistics may not take into account is that individual research, while invaluable, is subject to differing conclusions. Not necessarily of what gear is authentic in a generic sense, but certainly what is appropriate for given scenarios.

Jonathan Vaughan

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Messr Vaughan, you bring up two issues:
1) Is an item appropriate for a scenario?
2) Is an item an accurate reproduction?

I think Jim is trying to address #2. Not wanting to hijack this thread, so I started a new one:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?p=62308#post62308