Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

[Anna Allen]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Heath,
I have to disagree with you here. It has certainly made communication about events easier, and sometimes sharing research gems, but ultimately, it has almost killed the hobby.

No longer do folks get as much out of an event because it’s built up as the best thing since sliced bread on the boards. And no longer is someone a stellar participant because they read a lot, now it's what is the latest thing on the AC forums. Too many people have gained status as icons or infamous devils because of the internet.

More people should use the internet for its best purpose, sharing information, communicating, and bettering the hobby, not making a name for themselves by sounding like they know what they're talking about.

Just wanted to say I agree. Most people I don't think could admit what you just wrote on the forums. It's something I've thought about for a long time, ever since I happened to meet a few "big names" in the hobby and found out they were just a bunch of farbs in slightly OK kits. I still love reenacting and I do feel that internet has helped me get to know people and got me on the right track when I was first starting out. But there are times when I just wish people would get off the internet. Or at the very least, don't be so quick to judge that the person knows what they're talking about merely because they have so much time on their hands (or dare I say, lack of a social life outside of the hobby) and are able to post a hundred times a day.

And above all, I keep reminding myself that all of this we are doing because we love it, because it's FUN. And on that note, I'll end. Probably didn't need to respond, but I wanted to let Jim know I agreed and understand his frustration. Believe me, I've talked to a lot of people who feel exactly the same way.

[Silvana Siddali]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Amen, sister.

As Hank said above, the internet & specificially this forum have been a wonderful resource for finding other people who are interested in history, who occasionally crack a book about the Civil War, and who are dedicated to recreating the War-era experience as authentically as possible. I feel as though I've met some of my best friends here, as well as a lot of people I look up to & respect, even if I haven't met them face to face yet.

I'm also really grateful for the expanded opportunities for research elsewhere on the internet, including Making of America, the Library of Congress's online resources, and the like. Now, as I've said before & will continue to stress, I believe that that kind of research has to come along with reading books, visiting archives & museums firsthand (if and when you can) and doing one's own research and reading. The internet is an invaluable tool, but not the only one necessary for understanding the past. It's a bit like studying only a foreign-language dictionary before traveling outside the US. That may be helpful, but you also have to learn the grammar, expressions, etc., in order to speak a language.

As Anna observes, the real problem with the internet (and internet reenactors) is that people can adopt colorful personas, which are reenforced by frequent posting. Unfortunately it can be difficult for people new to the forums to sort out the nonsense from the reality. Sooner or later, though, if you do enough of your own research and attend enough good events, you can discern quality from quantity.

Sometimes I wish we could get a little bit past the obsession with detailed material culture here, but I suppose that's the nature of the beast. I do wish occasionally we could talk about cultural, political, social, religious etc issues a bit more broadly. There are times when the details become so obsessive that I feel I'm no longer discussing history (mind you, those are also the discussions from which I learn the most, so I'm not really complaining.) On the other hand: what I respect most about dedicated folks on this forum is the insistence on primary source documentation for every statement. That's one foolproof way to sort the bluster from the ... well, the other word beginning with b ...

[LindaTrent]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Judith,

Communication via the Internet is the single greatest thing to happen to the hobby in the past 20 years. And here you thought you'd get another Tolstoy-length essay.

Charles, I agree 110%. I went 10 years looking for people who wanted what I wanted out of an event. Civilian style carpe eventums like we created at various events, as well as events like SFS, Inn at Peak's Mill, and the upcoming trial event.

Before the days of the internet events were full of frustration. I remember when I was at an annual meeting of a very mainstream unit I once belonged to I suggested we have just one campfire at events that everyone knew would be in first person. Just one little nook where mainstreamers couldn't come in and start talking about whatever they wanted to talk about not caring that it is my camp. My space, my fire... You should have seen the objections from the military side. People insisting that if it was where the unit was invited that they had as much right to be at any fire and talk about anything they darn well pleased.

Of course that was the same meeting where as we were going through the food line I listened to the civilians say that they basically didn't care about history. That they were only there because their husbands were in the military and if their wives weren't there they'd give up the hobby. So... they weren't defending me either. You'd think I was forcing everyone to do what I wanted to do, rather than just asking for one spot where I could have control over what was said and done.

Along came Outpost, and we began to see that other people were interested in what we were doing. But we were very spread out geographically, but all willing to travel to the right events. Right about the time when many of us were about ready to hang up the hobby, came the great revival. McDowell '01, Burkittsville Hospital, and other carpe eventums; SFS, the Inn at Peak's Mill, Davis Run, and now the upcoming Trial Event, and thanks to you even the 57 camping trip went off, and because of it the C&O canal walk. :tounge_sm None of this would have been possible without the internet.

We've been computerized since February 1998, and during that time we have gained so much from the internet itself, the forums, the lists. It has made sharing and discussing resources a matter of minutes and hours rather than months or years. The revolution/revival whatever you want to call it of the computer has been a savior to the hobby, or at least as I see it. Without it, I would have been long gone from the scene. :(

Linda

[Hank Trent]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Sometimes I wish we could get a little bit past the obsession with detailed material culture here, but I suppose that's the nature of the beast. I do wish occasionally we could talk about cultural, political, social, religious etc issues a bit more broadly.

I agree. For example, I recently ran across the fact that lawyers, as well as doctors, were having parallel issues with the loosening of requirements to enter their professions in the early 19th century, most likely as a result of the Jacksonian "common man" ideal. Makes me wonder what other professions were affected, how people of different demographic groups felt about it, and how it hurt or helped overall. But somehow I just can't picture a multi-page thread on the influence of Jacksonian democracy on educational requirements.

And then there's also the whole field of historic interpretation, beyond the basics, with some questions that have no simple answers. How do you use living history to interpret "private space" to the public who, by their very presence, turn it into "public space," such as women and children wandering through an isolated all-male army camp? Or how do you get visitors to self-select so you can present a more challenging or controversial topic without offending those who don't want exposed to it? Interpretation as performance art oughta be a multi-page thread too, but I just don't see it.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Hallo!

"Sometimes I wish we could get a little bit past the obsession with detailed material culture here, but I suppose that's the nature of the beast."

IMHO, yes and yes. ;)

However, IMHO it is the Nature of the Beast because it is the foundation stones that we build upon as part of the Three Legged Stool.

And in many ways it is foundational because we are so dependent upon the need to first create the visual image, the physical manifestation and presentation of the "Past" in terms of physical appearance of uniform, clothing, gear, hair, body, etc., etc., and the physical appearance of activities and behaviors from the "Past."

As the old saying goes. "One rarely gets a second chance to make a first impression." a person could the most pre-eminent, gifted, knowledgeable, Time Machine interchangeable with the Past, EVER, in their head, when it came to actual "Life in the Past" and still not be able to create, present, and maintain a Believeable Image were they to be wearing modern clothes or costumes from the Halloween Shop.

On the other hand, if the World was such a place where due to knowledge, desire, access, and cost affordability Civil War (or any era) Material Culture items were all "correct" to begin with- we would not have to obsess and struggle so much with that one leg of the Stool and could "do better" on other aspects of our Craft. ;) :)

And, of course... that is another discussion about striking an effective balance. For a store mannequin outfitted in the most perfect of kit ever is still hollow, empty, unrealistic, and falls way short of understanding and portraying what elements of any form of simulation or emulation of "Life in the Past" we are feebily able.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt
Heretic Mess

[TKlas]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

My view is the Internet should be viewed like wine. It has many benefits but over consumption is not recommended. The reason I like it and still post on the AC for the main part is to share information with like minded folk whom do care about an accurate portrayal. When I went into the c/p/h realm years ago, this is something that I felt needed to be addressed - to share information and not to hide it unless due to copyright or other infringements. To me, many c/p/h units should be proud of their efforts to share information as it led to a boom of c/p/h folk from 2000-2004 and better impressions during that period.

It is only a tool to help aid those with improving their detailed orientated impression and not the end all, be all of the hobby.

More emphasis should be on attending high quality events and helping those meet event standards to attend such events.

Like many old timers on this forum, it would be nice to see more high quality impressions at events instead of on the keyboard.

Yours in accurate portrayals,

[LindaTrent]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

I wanted to reply to Silvana, who posted while I was typing. I went to edit my post immediately and after I finished adjusting it, it acted like it was going to update it, but never did. Anyway...

I do believe that MOA and other online books are great. They allow for reading a whole book online, searching text, and that sort of thing. I also agree with the importance of visiting national and state archives, university libraries, and specialty libraries. However, that said, I don't know how many people stop to think that a lot of universities and archives either have their card catalogues online, or have contact information for their reference librarian so you can see whether or not they have what you're looking for.

With the upcoming trial event, for example, I knew the local Frankfort Commonwealth newspaper for the exact period that we're portraying (August 10-12, 1864) had an advertisement for a bunch of the latest law books. :tounge_sm So, I began calling around to various tri-state libraries until I found out that the UK law library (only 3 hours away) had all but one, and the other was in the campus special collections library, a short walk from the first. One stop shopping, and saved the extra distance to Frankfort, and a lot of time searching the card catalogue online once we arrived. The reference librarian had even given us several of the call numbers ahead of time, so we could go straight to the shelves. And I must say that they were extremely polite and most helpful. :D I just couldn't believe the number of original books just sitting on the shelves and not tucked away in their rare books in the basement.

These books contained so many things that will improve the event that I can't even begin to go there. :wink_smil

The computer has also helped in organizing events in other ways as well, by being able to search for things in far away places. I don't live in Frankfort, but was able to find a supplier of block ice. That sort of thing. There are all kinds of ways that the computer can be used for good.

To me, the computer age has so dramatically improved the quality of events, not only by providing faster and better information via forums, lists, and online books and documents; but also by bringing together like minded people that make the research come to life. I can't even begin to fathom events any other way. 1999 v 2007? Absolutely no comparison! :D

Linda

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Like many old timers on this forum, it would be nice to see more high quality impressions at events instead of on the keyboard.

You said it Tom! The internet has helped grow the hobby of Cyber-Reenacting.

Jim Butler

[Drygoods]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

[QUOTE=JimConley; No longer do folks get as much out of an event because it’s built up as the best thing since sliced bread on the boards. And no longer is someone a stellar participant because they read a lot, now it's what is the latest thing on the AC forums. Too many people have gained status as icons or infamous devils because of the internet. [/QUOTE]

Mr. Conley,
Bravo! Yes, I'd have to say that I've seen this as well. The internet has all the markings of the CA gold rush, people came forth and reinvented themselves. Suddenly a store clerk became Judge Soandso, &c....same is true of the internet. Often I've read great things of site pages, only to find myself sadly disappointed with what the reality was, as though some sort of theme camping. Humility, the greatest missing link to this hobby. Nothing worse in the world than going someplace and looking forward to having great conversation with someone you've read on the boards only to find that they are such, in truth, fatheads with puffy egos, and don't know flip about period culture, but can type well, yes, the B and the S are also found on the keyboard. I find this such a horrible disappointment, and have to silently admit to myself that I felt a bit ashamed of thinking that here, at last, I might find someone with whom I could talk hours on end about the one thing in life that fills my reading hours, good history conversation. And I know that this isn't a nice thing to admit on a public board, but then I'm being honest, not just with myself, but with everyone. Not much else you can do but turn and walk away and hope that sometime during the weekend you have the good chance, luck, or opportunity of meeting someone else and talking with them. And when I say talking, I don't mean MY using up all the oxygen on site, I want to hear THEM, I want to hear other folk's opinions of how things were done then, and why, and how we can do (fill in blank) period correct now. The one thing I do see sometimes is that fatheads do tend to collect together at times, this is why we have the advantage of missing those mainstream events --- those Danger! Will Robinson! Farb Alert!

The other danger of the internet is the fact that we've learned not to, or forgot, how to write. Have you noticed how few people send real letters these days, how terrible our syntax and sentence structure has become? I thought when this new internet thing came into wide use that our culture would improve it's literacy, but no, we use abbreviations and still misspell nite or ez. What is worst still is when you have a group writing period letters and then you find that they've put a smiley face on a letter sheet or used some other stupid abbreviation. Well, when once faced with this sort of thing, I was surprised and asked a friend, what do you make of this? I was told that "I shouldn't be so critical, it's part of the human condition." To which I replied "What? Condition? How is a smiley face or abbreviation a condition? A condition is a rash, not the allowance of using modern internet reenactor terms as a substitute for a period interpretive letter." Yes, I know that many of you probably see me as a whiney fathead right now, but my point is that when you use the internet, you have to understand it's boundaries and that we cannot confuse what we use in our modern research or relaxation, and have it mix into our period interpretation. There is a distinct and wide difference between the two, and although we use the internet as a tool, it can be taken for no more than that, simply a tool to use for a brief period of time; consequently, when we leave our pixel and chair and venture into our period lives, the internet must also stay behind.

The great beauty of the internet is education. Education can be found in many other ways, books, lectures, even the TV set, but the one greatest thing about learning and education is that no one can take it away from you, your education goes with you every place. Consequently, although you've left that pixel and chair, what you've read here, good or bad, is with you forever. Don't worry that too much reading will make you a fathead, only your mouth can do that, oh, well, maybe your fingers can do that too. I dunno.

Pity, Mr. Heath, I was hoping for one of those long dissertations of yours.:D I may not always agree with them, but am always amused. I would have to say that the majority of what I read on this site has value to me, as well as others, and the loss of this information would hurt the hobby. For myself, I live in a poodunk whole of a town that has no interest in history, matter of fact, it routinely burns down old period houses to make way for beige tract houses, consequently, this is one of the few places where I can share, or find new ideas.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Pity, Mr. Heath, I was hoping for one of those long dissertations of yours.

Such posts are generally wasted on those who do not attend events. Tom Klas' excellent quote, as highlighted by Jim Butler, is well worth remembering.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Interesting and consistent perspective and well stated in the pharisaic historical tradition.
The broadest category of survey responses (above) suggest that there are about 4x more folks in another category than the fifty or so that actually participate in "for us by us" events. And these folks are interested in doing active research and impression improvement. The logical question suggested by the posts in this thread vis-a-vis the data...where are these folks? Are there some kind of events between the mainstream often referred to in posts as the "wrong events", and the "for us by us" events? Or am I mis-reading the data?

[Spinster]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Craig,

I think you are missing a piece of the data set information. Last time Charles posted the 'who is us' listing was sometime in 2006, with the data set drawn from actual attendance at events (registration alone did not get one on the list).

That post, "What do these people have in common?" was lost to the last great crash, though the lesson illustrated in it was not---that the numbers in question are not "fifty or so", but several hundred, with a goodly number of those participating several times a year.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Yes, Terre, it appears Craig missed the boat once again.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. If you total the first two categories, which deal with "authentic events", it constitutes around 20% of the survey participants and adds up to 57. It was an interesting poll and the subject is something that is very hard to quantify. Unless I misreading, from other threads "fifty" is the number of event attending participants often thrown around by Charles Heath and others.

[Old Reb]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

While there have been some interesting comments, the digression to interpretation of poll data makes my head explode. For what it is worth, there has been progress in kits and gear but I still see people who don't have a clue concerning what people in the mid 1860's thought, felt, believed in, nor how they talked, or what they read. I guess my biggest gripe is not in kits but in people just being dressed up hollow shells of the people they pretend to be. I don't think message boards and forums can help that, but old newspapers, letters, diaries and books can. Old fashion research can't be replaced by an electornic forum no matter how well intentioned that endeavor is. The people that we replicate were real and they sprang from a real culture, thus I feel that it is a better understanding of that culture that should be the next step in authenticity.