Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Charles:

Clearly missed the boat again. The point of taking a poll in which nearly 300 "authentics" (whatever that means) respond and trying to make sense of the data generated is somehow not the point? That's a good one. You might want to take a long look at where that boat is headed. It looks like it's taking on some water.

Tom makes an excellent point about original source research.

[dusty27]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Tom,

While I agree with what you are saying, is it a lot to ask folks who have real life issues; work, families, outside pressures, to form an entire other persona with these problems during a weekend that some use to get away from the things mentioned above? Talk about "head exploding".

I find the best first person is to say nothing. Or read a letter from home to others. Stuff you can prepare for instead of doing it on the fly.

If you can do it, great. But it might be too much for some, myself included.

[Old Reb]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Dusty,
I realize some people are not good actors, and agree that sometimes the best first person is to say nothing modern. This past weekend at our muster we had a member read from a dime novel entiltled The Hunter. It was so well received that we had people Sunday morning wanting to hear more of the story. It certainly was period and no one had to worry about being out of character as they listened. It also led to a discussion of what would happen to the characters later in the novel. I still think more attention should be directed toward character and that kit is not everything.

[LindaTrent]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

While there have been some interesting comments, the digression to interpretation of poll data makes my head explode.

Agreed. It kind of reminds me of the last few elections and reporters out polling the public. It all just kind of depends who's doing the polling and who's being polled, most of the time it's just useless information. Heck, I just voted today!

If you total the first two categories, which deal with "authentic events", it constitutes around 20% of the survey participants and adds up to 57

I was under the impression they all dealt with authentic events. My reading of it was that the first one was for those who are fairly new to the EBUFU movement, the second for those who are pretty comfortable with their gear and have been to EBUFU events, the third one's for those who don't care to improve, the fourth is for those who attend EBUFU events who are always trying to improve their gear, but buy all their gear from other's research, and the final one, the one I chose is the one where I'm always looking to improve my gear based upon my own research with assistance from others.

I see 184 people in what I consider to be the best category. I'm not entirely negating the good of outside help, in fact I think it's good. However, in the end our impression cannot be blamed or praised upon anyone other than ourselves, so if we're wrong and based it upon other's assessments, then well, it's our own fault for putting all our trust in our fellow man.

For what it is worth, there has been progress in kits and gear but I still see people who don't have a clue concerning what people in the mid 1860's thought, felt, believed in, nor how they talked, or what they read.

I wish you could have come to the trial event. Unfortunately it's all civilian, but I think you would have seen what you're looking for.

is it a lot to ask folks who have real life issues; work, families, outside pressures, to form an entire other persona with these problems during a weekend that some use to get away from the things mentioned above?

For what it's worth that's the only kind of event I put on, and people who have real life issues and outside pressures still find the time to develop personas. And never the same one for each event. Struggle for Statehood with about 45 people (including military), the trial (set to go off with about 30 people), Davis Run, Inn at Peak's Mill, Smithville, the pre-trial event, too many carpe' eventums to name... I think that sometimes it's that organizers don't have enough faith in the participants, and that participants have been trained that rules on modern talk won't be enforced anyway.

Just my two cents,

Linda.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Hallo!

"I was under the impression they all dealt with authentic events."

Now my head is spinning, whoops.. there it goes.. falling off, and on the floor. :) :)

I thought the poll was self-perception and how folks view their own vision, version, and approach to improving or not improving their impressions? (Without a discussion as to what, when, where, and how "improving" takes place...)

IMHO, without universally agreed upon and understood "qualifiers" and "descriptors," and even with them ... surveys and polls can deal more with personal perception than actual practice.

And for many folks, self-adhesive labels are the best ones they apply to themselves...
;) :)

Curt
Off to find his head before it rolls too far Mess
Proud member of the former professional researcher and gasp.. survey taker and analyzer, Rifles

[Hank Trent]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

I find the best first person is to say nothing. Or read a letter from home to others. Stuff you can prepare for instead of doing it on the fly.

At most events, what I've found is that when I'm portraying a period person by saying nothing, what I'm actually doing is spending the bulk of the event silently listening to others talk about modern things. Yes, virtue is its own reward, and one can go home proud that one didn't contribute to the farbiness, but it's the most boring way to spend a weekend that I can imagine.

So, practically speaking, what upcoming events can one go to, plan to say nothing or very little, and be rewarded by hearing those around you talk only about period things?

And even more practically speaking, if the conversations around you are constantly modern despite a "no modern talk within hearing of others" rule, and you're just a private/participant with no authority, what are you supposed to do? Is it each participant's obligation to dominate the conversation if they want it to be period, or is there some way to be quiet yet still get a period experience?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[dusty27]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Hank and Linda,

To be quite frank, I can't do the whole immersion weekend at the level that you both do it. Not in me. Not smart enough in the ways of the times; speech, mannerisms, dialects, etc. As an officer, I need to study and memorize moving men around and guard mounting.

In my case, I just can't do it. In others' cases, they just don't try. I feel the silence was a way of compromise.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

To be quite frank, I can't do the whole immersion weekend at the level that you both do it. Not in me.

No problem. Everyone approaches the hobby differently.

What about the final paragraph of my question though? It's based on past and potentially future experiences at events, and is not hypothetical. Anyone have suggestions for how to deal with that?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Spinster]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Hank,

I guess what I would say here is that I don't perceive you as dominating the conversation. Steering, but not dominating. And steering is good.

Lets take my dopey replies at Fort Gaines before I switched out of being a modern tour guide for my guest and switched into being the contract cook. You had to steer me twice with your replies, and then I switched over. My main challenge in all this is that I answer questions with wayyyyy too much information.

I do much better when I just go about work just as I do at home---singing period hymns.....rather badly might I add:o

But in steering conversations, all the responsibility must not fall on just one person--for then it become work, and not play. More of us have to get better at sharing the task.

[Drygoods]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

I guess my biggest gripe is not in kits but in people just being dressed up hollow shells of the people they pretend to be. I don't think message boards and forums can help that, but old newspapers, letters, diaries and books can. Old fashion research can't be replaced by an electornic forum no matter how well intentioned that endeavor is. The people that we replicate were real and they sprang from a real culture, thus I feel that it is a better understanding of that culture that should be the next step in authenticity.

Oh Mr. Yearby, if I wasn't such a straight-laced, stiff-backed, stuffy old dowager, who happens to be happily married to 200 pounds of twisted steel and sex appeal, I'd rush and shower you with kisses for that above statement! :wink_smilIndeed, the one and only way to understand how and why our ancestors behaved the way that they did is to read and understand what they wrote. Oh, how I wish that more people bought and read primary sources. In my view the best invention of the Internet was the source of finding places like ebay and other online antique book vendors so that I can purchase my "gems, offerings, and other antique" original books.

Now, I am well aware that some folks have a hissy fit if someone takes an original book out to an event, or any other original item, but even badly used books can be taken to events. What I mean to say that just because something is old, perhaps badly used, I see no reason why the cover cannot be repaired and that book finding new life again being read aloud in a camp setting. You might be amazed to notice that such a book is the very first time that Mr. Public has seen a book of such advanced age, and isn't it a wonder to him that people are still reading stuff like that! Yes, well, we all know that surprises happen every day. And the point is well taken of the previous other posts regarding the reading of the dime novel, My point was that original stories/books/reprint newspapers/&c. have a great place in interpretation. You all know that, but I seldom see soldiers with books.

I can understand how some cannot stay in FP for a whole weekend. I see this often enough, but I'm rather bats and think that the best time I can have with interpretation is to try and stay in FP for as long as possible. It's a real challenge to stay in FP for several days, day and night. I've done it with friends for years, and we all do our damnedest to trip each other purposely, we are good friends. Indeed the best part of FP is playing off of each other with conversation or reading, and if you have the group at the same level, or within range, it is not so difficult to pull off.

Even with all this drivel about statistics, it really doesn't mean all that much when you consider how fortunate we all are to be able to share these ideas here in this forum. As I've said before, where I live, I don't have this sort of opportunity for history conversations, but it is a great thing to be challenged with new ideas from others around the country, even though I have not met them f2f. Ideas and education well shared count, without it, we wouldn't have a hobby at all. Without a forum like this, I'd have no idea that many of these other events or gathering take place. Slick ads in a magazine mean nothing with interpretation. Perhaps the best thing that we can say is that it is true, birds of a feather flock together....and so it goes for people who love history and the study of material culture. However, as we all well know, talk is cheap and so is the same for what is read in forums, consequently, it is those whose actions speak louder than words....how we take the information found on the internet and put it into a practical use in our interpretation. That is what truly separates the hard core groups, the truly serious, as they seem get more done than just reading.

[Spinster]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Mrs Peebles,

Just a caution--if you ever come far enough east to catch Uncle Tom and shower him with kisses--his whiskers are a mite pricky and tickly :p.

Replicating the real culture though--through all its aspects--that is vital. I am listening a good bit right now to a friend who is a labor historian. His greatest emphasis is that "Work shapes people"--that what we Do affects our bodies and our lives in the most profound way. As recent months have allowed me more time at the wheel and needles, more time spent in silence without the blare of TV, more effort required to get to this glowing box, I see changes in my body and my mind.

Today, the task is fulling cloth for drilling lined blankets, and the barrel is on the porch--I go outside, step into it and walk, Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations in hand, until I am tired, come back inside, tend a dying pet, throw another load of clothes in the washer, and go around again.

I could full in the washer, but it isn't right. I would not learn as much about what it took then to make a simple blanket for a soldier. About hauling the water and the barrel, shaving the soap, lifting the heavy sodden wool, of how my feet feel after hours in the water, or how my knees feel from the walking.

How we choose to conduct tasks outside of events shapes us and teaches us as much as what we do at the events themselves. That depth of preparation in the small things affects the larger picture.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

You had to steer me twice with your replies, and then I switched over.

Now see, I don't even remember that. :) Steering is great. No problem there. Especially when you're among friends who have all decided to try to help each other accomplish something.

Where I run into problems is at events where it really is in the general rules, something like "Please refrain from talking about modern things where others can hear," but the majority of people are happily talking about modern things anyway with their friends. It's more of an issue at military events where everyone is assigned to a place, so I can't just walk away, and they can't just sent me off so they can do what they want among their friends. In that case, we're not talking about steering, we're talking about grabbing the wheel and forcing it into a U-turn. :)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Charles Heath]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Missed the boat and the dock with that one. The comedy does not cease. Other than the folks who are new to this side of the hobby, is there anyone else who doesn't get the joke in the poll?

It's a good one, too.

[LindaTrent]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

As I've said before, where I live, I don't have this sort of opportunity for history conversations, but it is a great thing to be challenged with new ideas from others around the country

I can't find the kind of events I want either, so I put on the kind of events I want to attend and hope that others want the same thing. The bummer of it is, I have to drive about 4 hours minimum even if I'm the overall organizer, just to get a decent site. From the responses I get from people on the west coast, I'd say that if you organized an EBUFU style event (immersion or otherwise), you could probably get a pretty good sized event.

Another option is to talk to an overall organizer and see if you can do a civilian carpe eventum. Either way, numbers for civilians don't really matter unless you're doing something like a trial where you need a jury, witnesses, judge, lawyers, defendant, baliff, sheriff, not to mention all the inn staff.

talk is cheap

I definately agree. :tounge_sm

Linda.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Authenticity Levels: Progress or Decline?

Hallo!

Herr Charles...
I already used up my quota of emoticons.

Curt
Talk is cheap, uniforms and kit are expensive Mess