the haversack

[PogueMahone]

Yes, yes, I know. Civilians didn't use haversacks. Possession of a haversack might be construed as possession of military goods. There is the wallet-style of bag for conveyance of personal items and food.

But the haversack is such a simple design and concept that surely there were some civilians who may have used such a bag for something, right? Today, lots of items that were originally created for military use have found their way into the civilian world: instant foods, two-way radio communications, GPS, radar and radar detection, the Jeep and Hummer vehicles, etc. So, if the military has been using a haversack as a piece of equipment for literally centuries, could it not have found its way into the civilian world prior to 1860?

I've had this discussion already to my satisfaction. But as an interesting tangent, I have found period references to civilian use of a haversack. I thought I would share, if for no other reason than to show that civilians did use a haversack ... sometimes.

I did a Google Book search using the search term "haversack" and looking for books published prior to 12/31/1865. I didn't use a "front date".

Ninety-nine and 99/100's of the hits were military-related, either army manuals or histories of war, warriors or regiments. A few, though, were not.

Petroluem and Petroleum Wells, by John Herbert Aloysius Bone, written in 1865

In a section giving advice to a person wanting to hike the "Oil Region", the writer advises they use a haversack to carry some cheese and bread in case they cannot reach a tavern before dinner time.

Healthy Moral Homes for Agricultural Labourers, by C. Vincent Bernard, published in 1860

This British book includes an advertisement at the end for a haversack that appears to be related to the use of rifles and shotguns. (I have recently seen a sketch of "refugees", a man, woman and child, and the man was wearing a bag that looked like a haversack and carrying some sort of long arm. The bag was too large for a shot bag, but maybe it was a haversack?)

The Troller's Guide, by Thomas Frederick Salter, published in 1820

I found several references to using a haversack to hold the catch during a day of fishing.

Enjoy!

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: the haversack

Joe,

Somewhere in the bowels of the forum (unless is already been lost), Garrison Beall posted a picture of a haversack attributed to a slave (from NC??)...It's been a while...but maybe just maybe, it's out there still...

I think the bigger question, is not whether or not the civilian populace used haversacks...but rather, what's appropriate in the pattern, style, construction of these bags...or do these things matter (maybe there's enough variations documented in original relics, and documents that support a wide range of options)...of course the secondary question is, how appropriate are these civilian counterparts for military applications??

Paul B.

[PogueMahone]

Re: the haversack

Well, my thoughts on posting the information were to provide some context as to how and why a civilian MIGHT have a haversack and to also point out the rarity of the item.

This sort of all goes back to a conversation I had about the compromises of reenacting an impression. (Mind you, I am talking about the average event, where the military is hosting, civilians are secondary to the action, and the property is a vast tract of empty acreage. I'm not talking about a Westville, where a village of buildings stand waiting to be occupied.) As reenactors we have to provide for ourselves in the field what the actual civilians of the War anticipated being able to procure on the road: food, water, shelter and bed. To me, it makes the entire refugee impression something of a mistake. Refugees either fled with what was on them at the moment or packed valuables (furniture, farming equipment, livestock, clothing, etc.) into a wagon and moved the household to a new location. Reenactors pack to camp in the woods for a weekend!

And the reason why we have to pack that way is because we can't stop at a house on the road to beg/buy/work for a meal and a bed for the night. Why not? There aren't any houses!

Ah, the elusive house! But that topic is better saved for another thread that would just get shut down in a week or so anyway ... ;)

But, I digress ...

I don't think it is a given that civilians had or used haversacks. I think it is a possibility in limited circumstances. The style, pattern, construction, etc., is going to vary from one to the other, with a basis in personal preference and use dictating such things, until the day someone finds a pattern in Godey's to use as a standard.

You can ask the question of military use of civilian haversacks on the military forum, since this is the civilian forum, but I'm pretty certain the military already has the haversack subject covered.

I can think of two instances where this information may be useful. Hank's iron ore expedition might be influenced by the advise for the hiker in the Oil Region. Similar advice might be given a hopeful miner about to begin a search for a new vein. And anyone wanting to go fishing for the day during an event might be advised to have a bag to tote the catch back home.

If they only HAD a home!

[Mutt]

Re: the haversack

Great topic! Makes ya think! haha

Just did a Google on "Haversack" and got a few things. I've never been a "definition" kind of guy but they can be helpful and put words into context via their origins.

Here is one from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Main Entry: hav·er·sack
Pronunciation: \ˈha-vər-ˌsak\
Function: noun
Etymology: French havresac, from German Habersack bag for oats, from Haber oats + Sack bag
Date: 1749
:a bag similar to a knapsack but worn over one shoulder

From Wikipedia (though I've never been a huge fan of the site):

A haversack is a bag, usually carried by a single shoulder strap. Although similar to a backpack the single shoulder strap differentiates this type from normal backpacks. One notable exception being the U.S. military (see below).

The name 'Haversack' originates from its usage to carry 'Havercake'. Havercake was a rough type of bread simply made from oats and water, with the addition sometimes of yeast to bulk it out. Oats was the staple food of the poor, especially in the textile districts of the north of England, during the privations caused by the Napoleonic Wars. Havercake was made in the form of a thick biscuit as a convenient way to take food to the factory for the mid-day meal, and the haversack was the bag it was carried in. This system, using havercake carried in a haversack, was also used widely by the military for the individual soldier to carry his rations. The Duke of Wellington's Regiment was nick-named the 'Havercake Lads' because the recruiting sergeants used to display a piece of havercake held aloft on a bayonette, to signify that food would never be a problem if enlisted; a geat encouragement to recruiting when the general population was starving.

So if Wikipedia is right, the haversack originated due to a civilian need. There is the consistent mention in other dictionary entry (won't quote them all, Google if you'd like to see them) mentioning a haversack to be used to feed horses their oats (IE an oat bag as mentioned above).

An observation I have Mr. Smotherman is that I indeed acknowledge the military usages in civilian life. Could be the reverse as well :) especially the melting pot of early America.

Anyway, just throwin in my two barks. Hope it contributed some to the discussion.

[kaelin]

Re: the haversack

Joe and others
Here is the link to the other discussion relating to Garrisons photos and description.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10285

respectfully

[PogueMahone]

Re: the haversack

Joe and others
Here is the link to the other discussion relating to Garrisons photos and description.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10285

respectfully

Yes, I've seen the thread. All one must do is search the civilian forum for "haversack" and nearly every thread on the discussion links to it. And now, so does this one. Can we not keep dredging up the dead-ends of yesterday and look at something fresh?

If you look at it objectively for a moment, you will realize it is not a haversack. The strap is short so as to keep the bag in front of you. When you stand and bend repeatedly, moving from plant to plant, you don't want the bag swinging back and forth. Also, there is no flap closure, it is just an open top. It is essentially a flour bag with a reinforced, padded strap added. I've worn a similar contrivance to pick beans in my grandmother's garden.

And, it is not the bag the original poster asked about that was ID'd to a slave. It is a different bag ID'd as belonging to a former slave.

Here is a painting of a Unionist refugee wearing a haversack of some sort:



LOC link if that image doesn't show up

And why the heck is his pant's leg rolled up? Was he riding a bicycle? Or is he a hardkewl showing off his new boots?

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: the haversack

I believe that the "haversack" in the drawing of the refugee family is a shot bag. It looks to be about the size of the the shot bag in this image:

[PogueMahone]

Re: the haversack

Brian,

Yes, I believe it is supposed to be a shotbag, also, but it is a bit large. And there are no other accouterments, such as the powder horn. Probably artistic license and possibly an artist who didn't hunt.

I REALLY like the image you posted. Those boys were busy, productive and proud of it.

But neither has his pants leg rolled up. I'm really curious about that in the painting.

[benjclark]

Re: the haversack

I forgot, the haversack is on page 30 of the rubber goods catalogue.

[benjclark]

Re: the haversack

Good discussion. I would imagine refugees made use of a haversack or something similar, afterall it would be very useful. How widely were "haversacks" available and in what patterns will take some time to figure out. Haversacks are offered in an 1856 catalogue of rubber and gutta percha products, available through our friends at Google Books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZTQNAAAAYAAJ. I don't imagine these were common, but it does show us some level of demand for haversacks in civilian populations.

[PogueMahone]

Re: the haversack

Dare I point out on page 33 ... an air mattress is advertised?!?

air mattresses

Maybe the farbs are on to something!!! If they'd had it they'd have used it!!! haha!

[PogueMahone]

Re: the haversack

I would imagine refugees made use of a haversack or something similar, afterall it would be very useful. How widely were "haversacks" available and in what patterns will take some time to figure out.

Well, it is something of a contradiction, but I suspect that haversack-like bags were available and were probably found on the farms and associated with some trades, but I really doubt most refugees would think to pack one up when leaving. I haven't seen an actual photo of one yet and the sketches that indicate usage are usually explained away for "other" purposes than carrying food.

I think I said this in another thread: Refugees are likely in one of two groups:
1) short term - last to leave, in a hurry, grabbing some valuables, going to the next town or to family elsewhere until the armies leave the neighborhood and it is safe again. They likely aren't travelling more than a day or two and anticipate getting food, shelter and water along the route.
2) long term - they have deliberately packed up the household and are moving away, probably never to return. They may have packed food for the trip, but it is in the wagon with everything else they own.

I just don't see actual refugees packing like reenactors do.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: the haversack

Hallo!

I was wondering when the "haversack" discussion would migrate from the
18th century boards to here.

;) :)

IMHO...

First, there are on-line discussions of haversacks, snapsacks, knapsacks,
market wallets, and hoppuses.

And second, there is always the issue of context and our (usual) inability to interpret or worse yet assign "context" to "over the shoulder bags."
Meaning, is the "bag" of shooting bag, a game bag, a "haversack" (by or under any other name)?

For example. Here is an 18th century German print of a lord disciplining his servant.
I "assume" that as a hunter he is wearing a shooting bag (and not a haversack or game bag).



Curt

[Hank Trent]

Re: the haversack

I can think of two instances where this information may be useful. Hank's iron ore expedition might be influenced by the advise for the hiker in the Oil Region. Similar advice might be given a hopeful miner about to begin a search for a new vein.

For what it's worth, the most detailed "how to be an iron explorer" advice we've found (here and the pages before and after) omits the crucial question, what do your carry your stuff in, so the oil advice is good to see.

However, in a parallel to the use of a haversack-like container for holding fish or game that you catch, there's this:

Our zeal as volunteer explorers was much moderated; yet we returned to the quartz vein, filled our haversack with the specimens, and started at once for L'Anse. Source.

Also, from one of Porte Crayon's fishing expeditions in the 1850s:

They persevered in this undertaking [following the river bank] until they had accomplished some two or three miles, but finding the route scarcely less difficult and hazardous than the descent of the falls, and having in the mean time emptied their haversacks, they concluded to return and rejoin their comrades. (Source, which also has an illustration showing the common tin-cup-on-the-belt arrangement, that I mentioned to Joe in an email.)

Speaking of air mattresses, there's an offhand reference to a water bed ("hydrostatic bed") a couple of pages earlier, in that account.

"...I have been sleeping all night in a puddle of water."

"The hydrostatic bed," said Mr. Smith [jokingly], "is preferable to any other for an invalid."

He's referring to a bed which used India-rubber cloths to hold in water, on which the sleeper floated, in the hopes of preventing bed sores during illness.

Well, it is something of a contradiction, but I suspect that haversack-like bags were available and were probably found on the farms and associated with some trades, but I really doubt most refugees would think to pack one up when leaving. I haven't seen actual photo of one yet and the sketches that indicate usage are usually explained away for "other" purposes that carrying food.

I'm curious about that as well, because so far it seems that the examples of haversack use for carrying food are for people who are experienced campers: explorers, hunters, fishermen. I wonder about typical uses around the farm or on a normal trip to town, unrelated to hunting or camping.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[benjclark]

Re: the haversack

Edited to add:
As I was typing this Mr. Trent was providing a much more thorough explanation and (I believe) very similar observations.

Another casual observation:
Doing a search for pre-1860 sources in Google Book search for references to "haversack", roughly 2/3 are still military in nature, whether soldiers or surgeons, officers, naval, etc.. Nearly all others are references to either hunting, exploration or robbery. Many of the references are court records, and it's great reading through and "hearing" how and what one did with their haversacks, or how the fact a man was carrying *two* made him suspicious as a highwayman.

Something I forget, in some places you should have urban refugees. I use the term urban very liberally. The handful of events I'm at ea. year we'd have mostly rural refugees. That difference may also need to fit into the short-term and long-term matrix.