An original shirt? What do you think?

[Dan Wambaugh]

Folks,

I picked this up a year or so ago at a small antique shop. No provenance, (of course), but the lady there said the dealer "often travels to France" and that she "wouldn't be surprised if that's where it came from."

Anyhow, the shirt is entirely hand sewn with a ridiculously small stitch count. It is all linen, as you can see pleated chest, VERY long body, and the cuffs turn upward slightly when it is hanging. Originally I thought it must be a nightshirt, but Brian pointed out that of the the shirts listed in "thoughts on men's shirts" the two nights shirts neither have shoulder reinforcements nor separate cuff facings as mine does.

The construction is remarkable. A large squarish piece of linen is cut and then folded over width-wise, so that the selvage becomes the bottom hem and the shoulder seam. This is why the shirt is so long, because the body is made from a single large piece of material!

The shirt has very small sleeve gussets, and small triangular neck gussets, and heavily gathered cuffs.

So what do ya'll think?! Thought you would get a kick out of it if nothing else. Here are some pictures:

http://www.wwandcompany.com/images/pdrm3854.jpg
http://www.wwandcompany.com/images/pdrm3855.jpg
http://www.wwandcompany.com/images/pdrm3856.jpg

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

Dan, that shirt is just screaming period constuction. The gathering in the back at the neckline, the correct button placement at the cuffs, the long length, and the creative use of the selvedge, along with that particular pleating in the front points to late 1840's to mid 50's but I've seen small, narrow gussets under the sleeves in shirts documented into the 1890's . I wouldn't put this shirt much later than the 50's with the extra triangular neck gussets . Its aweful darned clean though for an antique, but its hard to tell by just pictures. If its modern, someone sure as heck knows period construction big time. Oh to sew a shirt that well.....

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

Ross,

Thanks for the thoughts. Jim Ruley recommended I measure the width of the actual piece and the fabric used to make it is approximately 40 1/2" wide. On a lark I measured the stitches on the shoulder reinforcement and got an astonishing 17 stitches per inch. If it's a modern reproduction someone sure went all out!

[neocelt]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

Dan,

This is a lovely example of a shirt "cut on the square." Certainly an amazing artifact that I'd be proud to own. I appreciate and concur with Ross Lamoreaux' thoughtful assessment. And just to play devil's advocate here, I'd like to extrapolate a bit: Despite what has been stated in another thread on this forum regarding outmoded fashion being atypical in America during the Civil War years (a generalization with which I take issue BTW), Europeans seem not be so concerned with trendiness. Whether that's due to practicality, ingrained traditionalism/conservatism, or whatever, I'll leave to the social historians to debate. I mention this particularly in light of your comment about the possible European origin of the artifact in question.

I used to own a British issue painted linen Macintosh that could easily have passed for a mid-19th century artifact--if not for the broad arrow/WD and date 1952 stenciled in the lining! And this after Charles Goodyear's vulcanized rubber products had been such a smash hit at the Crystal Palace a century earlier (Those demmed colonial upstarts and their 'Yankee ingenuity'!). It was ankle-length and had a full vent in the rear seam with a gusset to accommodate mounted (ie: equestrian) employment and loads of hand detailing. I got it from a fellow who peeled it off a stack of about six or eight of them, neatly folded and separated by a sort of brown hard-finished packing velum. They were brand new and unissued! I think I was told it was a bobby's mac, but I can't swear to that.

Some years ago a pard showed me a heavy linen shirt cut on the square. Typical mid-19th c. construction (with all the little details--gussets, hand-worked buttonholes and bar-tacks, etc) with quite long tails. Wonderful detailing and impossibly tiny hand-stitching throughout. I was gobsmacked when he told me it was a WWII German issue shirt! I never followed up on it--it was just a novelty; something someone shared with me in passing--but I can cite several similar examples in the realm of material culture in which an artifact bearing all of the hallmarks of a given period can be documented to a much later date. I am particularly leery of attempting to establish the provenance of dug artifacts for this reason (some Civil War "historians" seem to think that objects were only dropped on the ground during a four-year period of our history...).

Again, this is an absolutely gorgeous "period style" shirt that I'd be proud to own--and I know you are a conscientious student of material culture and wouldn't make any broad assumptions (your post reaffirms that)--and I am definitely not trying to be contentious here. My comments are aimed at a tendency I have noticed within the hobby to "see what one wants to see." Just my two cents.

~Aden

[Elaine Kessinger]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

Mr. Nichols- Why don't you pull out your documentation on folks of our era wearing *signifigantly* out-dated clothing and post it on that thread? Be a great deal more fair than taking up space of a different thread.

Mr. Wambaugh- That is a beautiful shirt. Thank you for sharing it with us. My shirt research would place it in the 1840s-50s.. after the collars were diminishing and the front pleating became popular, but before the neck gussets were lost and certainly before the side shaping and sleeve shaping made underarm gussets unnesseccary. The reason for the shoulder reinforcements on shirts is so the braces/suspenders don't wear out the shoulder area. One generally doesn't wear suspenders to bed, therefore the reinforcements wouldn't be nesseccary on a nightshirt.

[GreencoatCross]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

I'd like to add that it seemed to me while taking the photos and inspecting the shirt, that at some point someone had bleached it or at least given it one heck of a scrubbing. It also feels a little "boardy" so I guessed that someone had starched it too.

Normally I'd be confident to say whether or not this shirt is an original but between the lack of use, cleanliness, and quality of construction I thought it might be a modern reproduction!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

Hallo!

As a archeology professor hammered the point home to me when as a hopeful student I had taken in a few spear points for him to identify for me...

Context is everything. Without dateable scientific context there is only opinion and at best inference.

But yes, there are mega-talented individuals at work that can recreate garments without fault.
For example, the work of Ruth Stevens in the mid 1990's rivaled and exceeded 18th century work found on surviving garments.
I suspect her garments will be the center of many a discussion in a few years, decades, or centuries.

Curt

(When one has mastered the skills, all what can be lacking is the purpose, desire, and the motivation.)

[VMurphy]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

This shirt looks exactly like the ones that we viewed in the Missiouri State Historical Society in St.Louis last year.
Doug Harding printed a small book on contruction of these shirts all ca. 1800-1870s
Beautiful on the square shirts of cotton and linen.
The linen shirt I'm finishing up is made like this with front pleats from the neck, band at the center front, etc. following Doug's booklet
He has photos in his booklet, but I have no way of post;ing them :(

This shirt also follows the suggested construction techniques given in A WORK WOMAN'S GUIDE 1839...

Great find, thanks for posting it

Regards
Vivian Murphy

http://www.themantuamaker.net

[erik]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

When I saw the images I was reminded of an article in the French magazine, "Les Armees De L'Histoire, Uniformes No. 70 Novembre, Decembre 1982.
The article discusses, over three editions, the evolution of the French soldier's equipment and uniforms. In this edition is shown a "bourgeron" which appears to be the shirt that you show. This is the 1882 version. I shall continue to research and in the meanwhile scan this illustration and post it for you tomorrow.
Our esteemed French comrades can answer this in a heartbeat.
Old kit is hard to leave the system. Just because an item has an official date does not mean it is a new pattern but simply approved or that old equipment is not maintained in service.
When I joined, in 1961, we wore webbing manufactured in 1944/45. Our sniper spotter scopes were WWI vintage in 1985.
A friend joined the British Regiment the RGJ in the 70's and was issued flannel shirts with seperate collars.
This seems an interesting line of research. If so many items of complete French uniforms and equipment entered, via Blockade running and purchase by the Union, then why not shirts?

Erik Simundson

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

Folks,

Thank you for the wonderful discussion! I am fascinated by all the different theories, ideas, information, and yes, even the words of caution. I really don't have a dog in this fight, I picked up the shirt for what I figured was a good deal and don't plan on selling it.

If anyone would like any other photos or measurements I'll be happy to share them. My knowledge of civilian clothing is arguably rather limited, so I'm finding this a very enlightening discussion!

[erik]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

I try again.
Only because I think that your shirt, original or reproduction matches this attachment closely.
Erik Simundson

[Ian McWherter]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

In my personal opinion, others may differ, I believe the shirt to be of late 19th or early 20th century origin. I've seen many very similar shirts come up for auction over the years on Ebay, all of them either had late 19th century (1890s) or early 20th century dates and most of them were from France. Heck, there are several on there right now for sale from a French seller (the same one?) and they all have c1890s dates in the seller's description. Honestly I think the shirt would be great for a French WWI impression, but I'd be very hesitant to use it for anything Civil War era.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-French-L...3A2%7C294%3A50
http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-French-L...3A1%7C294%3A50

[Busterbuttonboy]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

Ian
Without having inspected the shirts obviously because it is in Dans possession, why do you feel it is of a later 19th century origin. As far as construction is concerned and what you are able to deduce from the photos.

[erik]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

Well the patterns shown from ebay certainly follow the drawing I posted in general style. The trick now seems to trace the pattern pre 1882. The text, in the reference quoted, states that this would be a shirt worn for corvee (work details), and exercises. The fancy plastrons are for corporals.
This may be a standard French style that evolved.
I am sure that Godet of Paris cranked these out in the thousands for domestic use and export.
Has anyone tweaked the French Mess about this?
What do the experts in La Belle France have to say?

Erik Simundson

[Ian McWherter]

Re: An original shirt? What do you think?

Ian
Without having inspected the shirts obviously because it is in Dans possession, why do you feel it is of a later 19th century origin. As far as construction is concerned and what you are able to deduce from the photos.

Well, going strictly from a construction standpoint there is little difference from what we'd describe as "typically mid-19th century." But here are a few details: The bolt width of the fabric is quite large, typically bolt widths are narrower for shirts dated mid-19th C., the use of the selvage edge as the hem rather than a side seam as commonly seen on mid-century shirts and the small gussets. The fabric is also quite heavy compared to typical pleated front shirts of the 1840s-1860s, so it's use as a night shirt or work smock, as described by the ebay sellers, makes sense. These details of course don't necessarily disqualify the shirt from being Mid-19th century.

What's really telling to me, rather than the construction, is the number of these shirts that pop-up and how amazingly consistent they are, all from France, all with 1890s+ dates. Just a coincidence?