polished cotton mourning dress??

[Drygoods]

Good Day All,

In all of my research into mourning materials, I have never found that black polished cotton was used as a fashion fabric for a woman's dress, in fact, quite the opposite since glossy fabrics and trims were discouraged. I'm having a debate with a friend on this subject, and thought to ask if anyone has ever seen a mourning outfit made of polished cotton. Although polished cotton might have been cheaper than silk, and more easily affordable to those who couldn't buy silk due to blockades, and had to make do with what was available, has anyone seen mourning clothing of polished cotton?:confused_

[VMurphy]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

Hi Judith
NO...I"ve never in all the originals I've viewed and primary sources I've studied have I ever come across a cotton dress, black or any other color, that is a solid color. I have a lovely piece of black cotton voile in a tone on tone semi sheer stripe that I purchased many years ago, that would be a nice dress, if it were appropriate.. :( It's destined to be a modern dress of some sort perhaps ....
Sometimes no matter how much we wish it so...it just isn't!! Stick to your guns :)
Vivian Murphy

http://www.themantuamaker.net

[Carolann Schmitt]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

Hi, Judith -

I do not have any documention for black polished or glazed cotton mourning clothing. That statement is based on examination of several hundred original garments, and countless other primary sources. Is it conceivable there is a black glazed cotton mourning dress somehwere? Possibly, but it would be a definite aberration. Why is there no evidence for their existence? The following may help you in your discussion with your friend:

1) Until the invention of aniline black in 1868, it was very difficult to obtain a colorfast black on a plant fiber, e.g. linen, cotton, pina, etc. Most black dyes used on these fibers are very fugitive, subject to fading from sun and laundering with surprising speed. Period dye houses were well aware of these pitfalls, and few wasted time and effort on producing a fabric that was not durable and hence harder to sell. However, this was not the case with black dye on protein fibers, e.g. silk, wool, alpaca, etc. Black dyestuffs from this era were very fast on these fibers.

2) While difficult and often not cost-effective to produce, it was not impossible to obtain a colorfast black cotton. The process involves over-dyeing with two or more colors, making it more expensive and labor-intensive. A true colorfast black could easily be more costly than a silk or cotton. For further reference, there is an excellent series of articles in Scientific America that explains the trials and tribulations of dyeing goods black.

3) An examination of period advertisements, store ledgers, etc. shows that good quality cotton could be as expensive or more expensive than silk or wool. We cannot apply a contemporary comparison of fabric prices to the mid-19th century.

4) Mourning clothing was some of the first ready-made clothing that was widely available; you need it and you need it now. Again, period advertisements and commentary indicates these ready-to-wear garments were widely available and affordable to all but the lowest economic classes.

5) Mourning clothing was also widely available on the second-hand clothing market. It many area, keeping mourning clothing and paraphenalia in the house after the period of mourning was observed was considered to be very bad luck. Once the period of mourning had passed, the garments were sold or passed on to others who needed them.

6) Much of the glazed cotton manufactured during the period was designated for linings and the quality is comparable to the use. Silesia, a popular glazed cotton used for lining, is the source for the word "sleezy". In an era when garments and the fabric used to make them were expected to last for years or decades, the use of an inferior fabric would not be a common practice.

7) The effects of the blockade are used to justify a number of modern practices that would not have been done during the period. Period diaries written by women affected by the blockade show that the common practice to obtain mourning attire when traditional fabrics were unavailable or unaffordable was to overdye existing clothing. Isn't it better to duplicate a period technique than to attempt to justify one that isn't?

In summary: I personally do not have documentation for the use of black glazed cotton for mourning garments, and the practice is not consistent with period practices. I welcome any comments or additional information from others.

[Drygoods]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

Thank you both for answering my post, and as I said, I've not seen or read of a polished cotton dress, yet. As they say, we should never say "they never" when it comes to history, since someday something different might come to the light and be rediscovered. Yet, on the other hand, the idea that anything could be possible, and since polished cotton did find it's way into lining clothing, it could have been possibly used as a fashion fabric. It's a stretch though isn't it. My view is to play it safe, use the cotton for the lining, not as the exterior and just wait for something better to come along, like a winning lottery ticket, then go out and buy some really great black silk.:wink_smil
Best thing about these forums, hearing the views of others who have had different experiences.

[VMurphy]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

Carolann...thank you so much for the more indepth information on Black dyes, textiles and mourning. It's all very interesting :)My knowledge of period dyes is very limited but I understood that analine dyes had begun to be used by the early 60s??? and you give a date of '68. was this particularly in regard to black dye?
Thanks
Vivian Murphy

http://www.themantuamaker.net

[Carolann Schmitt]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

In 1856 William Perkin, age 15, is working in the potting shed in his father's garden attempting to create synthetic quinine. In the process he discovers the coal tar derivative he is using (aniline) permanently stains his fingers purple and he contacts one of the local dye houses to see if they might be interested in it. Thus the synthetic dye industry is created. The French named this unusual purple color mauve. Aniline is used to create a variety of synthetic dyes over the next several decades, including aniline black (1868), red, yellow, blue, green and other shades. The most difficult color to produce and the last one to be created successfully was aniline blue.

Aniline dyes were prized by dye houses because they produced rich, deep, vibrant shades on protein fibers at a cost-effective price. The natural dyes used prior to Perkin's discovery were expensive and labor intensive to produce. It is interesting to note that 'Perkin's purple' worked only on protein fibers. When used on plant fibers, it produced a dull muddy gray. Something to keep in mind when someone says their purple-printed cotton dress was made with an aniline dye. T'aint possible. :)

Perkin is recognized as the father of organic chemistry and is credited with help making it an accepted scientific field of study. The British, unfortunately, were not particularly viligant about protecting patents and much of the work done during this era by Perkin and others is 'stolen' and registered by companies in Germany and France. The modern scientific and pharmaceutical conglomerate BASF began as an aniline dye house.

A very readable and fascinating book about Perkin and the invention of aniline dyes is Mauve: How One Man Invented a Colour that Changed the World by Simon Garfield [New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 2000]. "The Art of Dyeing” can be found in Scientific American, [Volume 10, Issues 15 through 51; New York: 1854 – 1855] on Cornell University's Making of America website. An interesting study of the transition from natural to artificial dyes can be found in the dissertation by Ann Buermann Wass Natural and Synthetic Dye Use for Protein Fibers in the American Textile Industry 1856-1891, University of Maryland, 1992.

[motozulli]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

I just wanted to chime in that the Museum of the City of NY has a solid pink cotton woman's dress with a bit of white braiding. But of course it's not polished and it's definitely not mourning!

Alaina

[ElizabethClark]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

If the woman in question wants a "best black" she can use for mourning as well, I'd recommend a good black tropical worsted wool broadcloth. The dyes are very fast, it's a dull finish, but can be fancied up with silk accessories, and possibly a set of silk buttons. Hang on for sales and save up in the meantime, and wools can be found for under $10 a yard!

[Drygoods]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

Well, the many yards of polished cotton will likely be cut down to complete two gowns, and bits saved for men's vest and coat lining. The first will be trim on a wrapper with a black center front and bottom band, which is a copy of a wrapper from an online museum. I can't recall which one it was, but was found here online at the suggestion of another woman who answered a thread with photos of original clothing. Thank you to her for that help.

Another large piece of cloth will go towards the skirt of an andulsian suit. The jacket and vest are a mauve and black plaid, the skirt will be the black, and trimmed with the same plaid with diagonal strips. It will be a good mix, accurate to some fashion plate, and be a good use of what to do with scraps that have no other function. Mind, this is an outfit for a young lady. I'm never one for those mix-n-match outfits, but sometimes you cannot talk folks out of things, but for a young lady, she could pull it off.

When you live in an area without those fabric chain stores, it's tough on the pocketbook to miss those sales, consequently, you often have to make the most of what you've already got, but the key is to keep your clothing historically accurate. Many kind thanks to all who answered.

[VMurphy]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

Well, the many yards of polished cotton will likely be cut down to complete two gowns, and bits saved for men's vest and coat lining. The first will be trim on a wrapper with a black center front and bottom band, which is a copy of a wrapper from an online museum. I can't recall which one it was, but was found here online at the suggestion of another woman who answered a thread with photos of original clothing. Thank you to her for that help.

Another large piece of cloth will go towards the skirt of an andulsian suit. The jacket and vest are a mauve and black plaid, the skirt will be the black, and trimmed with the same plaid with diagonal strips. It will be a good mix, accurate to some fashion plate, and be a good use of what to do with scraps that have no other function. Mind, this is an outfit for a young lady. I'm never one for those mix-n-match outfits, but sometimes you cannot talk folks out of things, but for a young lady, she could pull it off.

When you live in an area without those fabric chain stores, it's tough on the pocketbook to miss those sales, consequently, you often have to make the most of what you've already got, but the key is to keep your clothing historically accurate. Many kind thanks to all who answered.

Judith...
Hopefully, others will chime in here. But I feel confident in saying that most likely the solid color trim on the wrapper is either wool or silk.
The black polished cotton would not have been used with other colored textiles because of it being very fugitive and fading onto other parts of the garment.
You might be able to use it for linings on men's garments that don't get washed so much,(perphaps the sleeve linings, or coat linenings.) But it would not be used in combination on another garment as trim or even part of the garment.

I would save it strickly for linings.....

Regards
Vivian Murphy

http://www.themantuamaker.net

[ElizabethClark]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

Ditto with Vivian... I have absolutely no documentation for non-wool, non-silk skirts in those cute combination outfits. The polished cotton will wear very poorly as an outer layer, and tends to crock off onto upholstery, stockings, petticoats, and other people.

[Drygoods]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

The polished cotton will wear very poorly as an outer layer, and tends to crock off onto upholstery, stockings, petticoats, and other people.

Mrs. Clark,
A true quality polished 100% cotton will NOT smude on your clothing, other people, or upholstery. I do not know where you purchase your cloth, but I can tell you that two little shops that I know well about, never sold polished cotton or any other cloth that crocked off.

I am amazed that you would make a broad statement like this without first having seen firsthand the fabric in this discussion.:confused_

[ElizabethClark]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

As has already been discussed, in the early 1860s, colorfast black dyes with which to make a black polished cotton are not terribly good at not crocking. That's the main point: What Did They Do Then?

Regardless of the impressive quality of cloth you may have at hand, The Original Cast does not seem to have used polished cotton of *any* color for outer garments. Glazed wool--you betcha, in all sorts of colors. But polished cotton for outer garments = opting to do a non-period thing, which takes the resulting garment right out of the range of accurate options.

Some amount of crocking with colored cottons (printed or piece dyed) is always possible; there are usually trace amounts of dye left on the surface of the cloth when it leaves the manufacturer. Most of the time, this is not a problem (then and now); sometimes, a dye batch just doesn't set as well as we might like, or is a bit more present than it might otherwise be, and it can indeed crock. It has very little to do with the retail merchant. Batches of cloth from the same manufacturer can vary quite a lot, actually, so though a merchant might not ever knowingly sell a batch that tends to crock or rub, some just do. (Dark colors seem more prone, then and now, which may be why so many linings are seen in the lighter neutral colors of polished cotton... less chance of spoiling a set of undergarments if a batch does have residual dye on the fibers.)

For the garment set you described (a skirt to go with a fashionable ensemble), the fabrics that I, personally, can document include a wide range of good wools and silks. The documentation that I, personally, have managed to find in the last 18 years, added to the notes generously shared by others I respect a great deal, do not (to my current knowledge) show polished cottons of lesser or greater quality used for the type of garment you described. Thus, it would not be historically appropriate, in my opinion, and with the current body of research as I, personally, understand it, to use the polished cotton for the skirt.

I don't know where the mystical land of always-on-sale good wools may be, because the chain stores in my region don't sell wool of any kind. I do what 95% of the rest of the reenacting world does: I save up, and I shop carefully on line, and I end up with the right fabrics for the right garments, as determined by my own impressions and event needs. There's no magic formula other than patience and savings and careful shopping.

What I won't do is waste my time and effort making a period-technique garment with atypical or incorrect fabrics.

So, feel free to stand amazed. I made a broad statement, and I'll cheerfully stand behind it, too. Not all broad statements are incorrect.

[Drygoods]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

So, feel free to stand amazed. I made a broad statement, and I'll cheerfully stand behind it, too. Not all broad statements are incorrect.

Mrs. Clark,
You really have missed my point, again. Let us just say no more because I see no point in going further.

[ElizabethClark]

Re: polished cotton mourning dress??

I do agree.