Pistol packing civilians

[Longrope]

This is a question that I had posted on another forum, and now bring it to the attention of the keen intellects here...

In the 1850's the revolver became the most popular sidearm for those citizens who wished to arm themselves. In what manner did they carry their spare ammunition? Factory produced cartridges in their pockets? Flasks?
Or did they just load six in the cylinders, and call it good.

Just a little historical detail that I've wondered about for some time.

Thanks,

Casey Mott

[PogueMahone]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

Mentions of pistols in the hands of civilians that I've read don't indicate that they were preparing for a long term gunfight in most cases. Typically it is a loaded pistol and nothing more. Most seemed to be carried in pockets as self defense while out and about or simply stored in a drawer at home until danger appeared on the doorstep.

Even in an extreme example, such as Champ Ferguson, who carried multiple pistols (usually taken from his victims), when asked why, stated that he didn't want to be caught unarmed by his enemies. So he wasn't planning to reload, just pull another pistol.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

Hallo!

History is not kind to us in answering that question...

It would appear that there is an absence of much detail when it comes to the how, other than they were called "pocket pistols" for a reason.
And the "fashion" was often to have a cased (boxed) set that included all that was needed to load and maintain a revolver but that was too big and cumbersome to fit in one's coat pocket.

IMHO, in the absence of accounts and artifacts to the contrary, there was also a different "vision" going on. That being that like the single or double shot derringer, the loaded five or six shot pocket pistol was a deterrant, and even in a gun fight the "expectation" was that a shot or two at close range would be more than enough to settle things.

Curt

[Longrope]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

Thank you, Joe and Curt, for the input. You certainly are correct that history is not kind in this question. I believe a "pocket pistol" would answer for the needs of the average citizen, in the more settled areas of the nation.

The real intent of my question, however, concerns those people in parts of the country where there was a need to be armed. Mining camps in California, and Montana. The frontier of Texas, and "Bleeding Kansas" just to name a few.

What references I have found, mention extra revolvers, and spare cylinders (for the Patterson Colt). Nothing on spare cartridges.

I may have to concede that the answer is lost. Ah well.

[David Swarens]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

Hello.

I have run into a period expression that a person "knows how many beans make five" -meaning that they are an individual of intelligence.

After an initial puzzlement, I believe this refers to the practice of leaving one open slot, for safety to avoid accidental discharge.

"How They Said It" published by the Ide Adobe (California State Historic Park) documents the phrase to the 1850's , as I recall. (unfortunately the book is not coming to hand).

This book does not made the connection to firearms, but the use of the term "beans" for bullets showed up elsewhere. That work only says that such a person is a smart one.

Remember in that percussion caps would also be carried for those weapons which needed them.
But as for bullets, you might consider the period practice, by some at least, of loading five rather than all six.

I do have (a picture of ) a daguerreotype from the early 1850's showing a well dressed young man, with a (dark) frock coat, top hat, and large plaid vest wearing a wide belt on the outside of his buttoned coat, which supports two pepperbox pistols on each side, butts toward the center, a medium bowie knife in front of the pistol on the right, and in the center, a pouch with a flap, fastened in the center.

The pouch looks like it might be about five inches wide and four inches tall, comparing it to the pepperbox next to it, and has a curved bottom.

Medium to light colored, matching belt (2"?) pouch, holsters for the pepperboxes, and holder for knife sheath, appear to be leather, natural russet?

I think it is safe to assume that this pouch carried caps, "beans" etc, for the gentleman's pistols.

Very well dressed, so maybe he was "sold" an uncommon rig for his trip to California.
True "holsters" for pepper boxes seem to be pretty rare-usually they are seen tucked into clothing or belt, and sometimes with a simple loop, so this is a "nice" set up!

Yours,

David Swarens

[Hank Trent]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

Hello.

I have run into a period expression that a person "knows how many beans make five" -meaning that they are an individual of intelligence.

After an initial puzzlement, I believe this refers to the practice of leaving one open slot, for safety to avoid accidental discharge.

"How They Said It" published by the Ide Adobe (California State Historic Park) documents the phrase to the 1850's , as I recall. (unfortunately the book is not coming to hand).

This book does not made the connection to firearms, but the use of the term "beans" for bullets showed up elsewhere. That work only says that such a person is a smart one.

How old were six-shooters? Were they around before Colt in the 1830s? The expression goes back at least to 1818 and probably older, in the British Isles.

In the period, the origin was already apparently lost and they were groping for explanations in this 1862 British discussion of where it came from or what it meant.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Lance Stifle]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

Good evening Hank,
the earliest "almost six shooter" I can find was a Scottish made All-Brass four shot Flintlock revolver, the barrel being rotated by hand, it's a .36 calibre, circa 1700.

It was lent from the collection of William Keith Neal Foundation for "The Swords and The Sorrows" exhibition displayed by the National Trust for Scotland, which I attended as a guest in 1996.

A book featuring the revolver and many weapons from the Jacobite rebellions, in which my own Appin Stewart Clan participated was made available and I have a copy.

I hope you find this of interest.
Kim Stewart-Gray

"I am with the South in death, in victory or defeat...I never owned a Negro and care nothing for them,
but these people have been my friends and have stood up to me on all occasions."
Patrick Cleburne 1860.

How old were six-shooters? Were they around before Colt in the 1830s? The expression goes back at least to 1818 and probably older, in the British Isles.

In the period, the origin was already apparently lost and they were groping for explanations in this 1862 British discussion of where it came from or what it meant.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

Hallo!

The difference lies in the evolution of the "revolver."
In History there were a number of attempts do deal with the problem of a single shot weapon- often by increasing the numbers of loaded barrels. Taken to the extreme their was the Nock Volley Gun, as well as a number of so-called "ducks' feet" type pistols as well as those will say twin barrels that revolved.

Even after the advent of the revolver, some lads (unsuccessfully) hung onto the old concept such as J.P. Lindsay's two shot musket AND two-shot pistol.
Two shot/two barrel pistols were once common on the civilian market in the 1830's and 1840's after the rise of the pecussion cap.
The clever way around that was the caplock "pepperbox" design where the multiple barrels were essentially made as a revolving cylinder. The "cheaper" ones required the barrels/cylinders to be advanced or rotated by hand while the "betrer" ones mechanically advanced when the hammer was cocked.

Different revolvers makers addressed the safety problem differently, such as adding pins between the chambers for the hammer to sit on, or milled "stop slots" that the hammer nose rested in.

I am not entirely sure why, but the "load five" in a "six-shooter" except when "you need six" became a matter of Folk Lore in the later "Wild West."
Even to the point of getting mythical such as a cowboy only loading five of the six chambers and rolling up a bank note to pay for his funeral in the sixth chamber. (They get set on fire.)

Curt

[Hank Trent]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

I am not entirely sure why, but the "load five" in a "six-shooter" except when "you need six" became a matter of Folk Lore in the later "Wild West."
Even to the point of getting mythical such as a cowboy only loading five of the six chambers and rolling up a bank note to pay for his funeral in the sixth chamber. (They get set on fire.)

So it looks like there's no connection between "how many beans make five" and the number of bullets loaded into a pistol. The expression was much older than the era when pistols with exactly six chambers became widespread, not to mention much older and farther away from the time and place when loading five chambers became a focus.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[OlszowyTM]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

Hank --I would concur with you. It would seem a monetary/intelligence based connection is more appropriate to our time frame as this source from 1859 suggests:

A dictionary of modern slang, cant, and vulgar words: used at the present ...By John Camden Hotten, 1859

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zhk9h-w1negC&pg=PA4&dq=%22how+many+beans+make+five%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=1700&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=1865&num=100&as_brr=1&cd=13#v=onepage&q=%22how%20many%20beans%20make%20five%22&f=false

[Drygoods]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

Good Day All,
I know very little about firearms, but am trying to learn so would like some help. From my limited knowledge, weren't some revolvers tied with lanyards around the chest so that if you had to run, you wouldn't drop your gun? So, say if you didn't have pockets or a holster at the waist, you could possibly carry a gun inside your coat, still be able to use it, and not loose it if you had to flee? But still, it leaves the possibility that to carry extra ammunition would be difficult, and so you'd be rather limited in your amount of time in a fight?

Necessity is the mother of invention, so as a woman, and without the benefit of holsters and pockets, if I had to carry a concealed weapon, I'd likely carry something small, hidden and tied. I hope that someone will answer this, as I'm not really sure just where to find correct information.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

Hallo!

Just an aside...

A number of Period era revolvers, such as some of the "pocket" types, only had five shot cylinders.

Curt
Bean Counter Mess

[David Swarens]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

Hello.
Thanks for the further discussion.

As I mentioned, I ran into the "how many beans" phrase documented to the 1850's, with only a primary meaning , of intelligence", and the use of "beans" for "bullets" a little later, and put too (I did that on purpose) and two together myself; A good "folk etymology" but not, apparently correct (although meanings sometimetimes do shift, as people "make sense".)

It good to see a discussion based on "cites!"

I'm not a very sophsticated fellow though-the only gun I own is a "pepperbox" (with six shots).

Yours,
David Swarens

[Drygoods]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

I'm not a very sophsticated fellow though-the only gun I own is a "pepperbox" (with six shots).
David Swarens

A pepperbox? I had one of those. How'd you get a pepperbox, sell some of your spoons?
(just a little joke my friend) We are sure looking forward to seeing you in June. Bring the pepperbox. :)

[David Fox]

Re: Pistol packing civilians

I believe one cannot underestimate the intelligence of many civilian gun handlers, then or now. The rap singer recently convicted for a firearms violation...the weapon coming to the attention of authorities when he contived to shoot himself in the crotch... illustrates the latter assertion. As to the former, for decades I've read gunwriters' allegations that 19th Century western gun toters left an empty chamber under the hammer of a single action in thoughtful precaution. I've never seen a source for this statement, it just keeps being traded around. Years ago I chalked it up to legend created to instill that worthy discipline upon modern shooters of revolvers without rebounding hammers. As to five 'beans' and whatever, most pocket revolvers tended of the era to be five-shooters, anyway. The puny S&W .22 of pre-War vintage was a seven shooter.