Are these picture taking duds ?

[OldKingCrow]

or every day "go to city" wear ? I am inclined to say the preponderance of men in this image, based on reasonable application in assigning probability to contrasting tones, are clad in black ? (Looks like a national troop or two as well.)

Modern civilian events represent a rainbow of mens garment colors. Are the men in period images more likely dressed for the image and in their Sunday best, traditional black mens suits..to then return home and put on their multi-colored garments ?



Thanks to Yeoman for the image....any image of civilians at this level of detail posted here will be appreciated by more than I for certain sure.

Cj Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

I can't subscribe to assigning colors by relative grey-scale... rather, I'd suggest the coats may be black, due to the preponderance of black coats as a manly fashion color in the 60s. The 50s are a *lot* more colorful, and the 40s even more so.

This particular picture is quite unposed and casual. I'd chalk it up as "looking decent out in public", rather than "everyone wear your best and we'll do a portrait."

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

Madam Citizen Moderator,

I appreciate and value your input...I'll defer to your word on matters of 19th century fashion, as gospel, ere' time.

If I might…

- What influence, if any, has your research revealed regarding the ability of black or dark colored outwear to hide staining from the more "organic" materials and societal norms / practices of the time ?

In terms of additional knowledge I glean from this image is support of my reading somewhere that the roundabout was primarily a teen aged garment, notwithstanding the use by mounted forces for the utility purposes of its high waisted high cut and the CS by reason of thriftiness in material consumption.

Postwar commentary removed- Nothing to do with this picture, Chris. Keep the discussion germane to the era or before the era we discuss on here. Thanks- Johnny

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

Notice I didn't delete the whole thread. ;)

No need to get in a huff, dude ... just keep it on-point.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

My research has shown that black garments were the trend and not intended for simply formal war only. I have a fairly recent post running on material culture and there is some good information posted on there discussing the nature of the black wool. It was much lighter and much more breathable than what we have even in the best repop's currently. I have several pictures on a database at home showing dark and light mixtures as well as shirt sleeves among folks in seemgly black frocks. If I get time when I finally get home i'll post them.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

My research has shown that black garments were the trend and not intended for simply formal war only.

My point exactly on the frequency of every use across the mid-19th century socio-economic spectrum, save in my case for trying to determine if dark colors, in particular black evolved in popularity from, as the Madam Moderators description of the fancy and colorful 40' 50's, based on "trend" versus purely environment driven, garment life longevity concerns and utilitarian motivations

Many ACW era veterans and citizens in their antebellum lives demonstrated a propensity to use this very rationale / material methodology which is supported by a significant historical record.

Cj Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

Some aspects are purely style-driven, though... the economic reversals of the 1850s seem to have triggered a bit of a retrenchment in the outward colorfulness of men's dress clothing (perhaps an outward manifestation of inner uncertainty, somberness, etc?), though vests and such retained a goodly amount of personal variety.

But "better" clothes are in separate categories from "work" clothes... look at the contemporaneous paintings of working class fellows, versus paintings of bankers, ministers, and lawyers, or school teachers. The "better" and "Sunday Best" clothes tend toward dark colors for many men in the 60s (with summertime exceptions of linen suits), while the working clothes of lower-class laboring men shows a wider variety of colors and textures. There are lots of exceptions, and a range of possibilities, but those are some really, really broad generalizations I'm making. I think we sometimes miss the subtle cues that people of the time would be able to hone in on, to read more about a person's status than we will ever really "get."

As to darker cloth being practical, that really depends. Wool of all sorts is a more practical textile than cotton from a stain and odor vantage. Wool releases grime and odors much more readily than does cotton, without washing (substitute beating, brushing, and airing, plus spot-cleaning). Mud on a wool suit? Let it dry and brush it out. You may have some faint staining, but it will wear out with time, or could be further cleaned. Same mud on cotton? It's going to stain more heavily, and fade more slowly. How about coal dust? It can settle into cotton for some great permanent color, but can be pulled out of wool with things like fuller's earth (ditto fuller's earth on oily stains from petroleum, cooking grease, or other oils... you're stuck with cotton, but fine with wool). Do you have a loving horse or cow who tried to share some pre-masticated hay with your elbow? With cotton, you'll have a chlorophyll stain there for awhile, and smell a bit.. off. Wool? Let it dry, brush it off, and give it a good airing.

Seriously, wool in all colors is a practical fabric; more practical than cotton in many respects. A man in a dark suit is no less prone to acquiring grime, but a dark *wool* suit will fare better than a dark cotton suit, and a light wool suit will fare better than a light cotton suit... can't say I've seen truly light-colored wool outfits on men over the age of mid-childhood, though.

I'll support the idea of a roundabout coat being a style more often worn by boys and very young men. Variations of it blend in with some adult men's coats, though, so it's still not a universal thing.

I'm by no means one of the experts in men's clothing. Interested observer, yes. :) Well-dressed-out men, regardless of the class impression, are a thing of beauty. When you fellows dress to look like the fellows of mid-century, there are a lot of us ladies who notice, and approve.

It's 2:10 am on Saturday... I think it's time I call Friday officially OVER, and hit the hay. I'll be glad of others with more research background than I chiming in! :)

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

I've posted this same article numerous times on numerous forums and I've stated over and over again how common black was not only for formal men's wear but for work clothing as well. 1860s men's attire tends to be rather sober compared to previous decades, fashionable textured fabrics such as tweeds in muted tones tended to be more popular than bright colors or patterns for informal attire. Even 1840s and 1850s American fashion, in reality, tends to be more sober than reenactors think, I call it the Gangs Of New York syndrome. Talk to any collector of original American men's clothing, while certainly there are some colorful original pieces, they tend to be fairly conservative compared to original examples of English clothing and original French garments are even more wild than the English.

At reenactments you can see every color of the rainbow exhibited in men's clothing, but black. It seems every reenactor has the mentality that "everyone wears black, so I'm going to wear something different." But, since most men make this decision very few actually wear black. There's also something about reenactors in general that makes us all crave to be "colorful and unique butterflies." The result is when you actually see a large group of civilian men gather at an event they look far more like a troop of clowns from Barnum & Bailey than actual period citizens. Everything is theatrically exaggerated, wild clashing colors of every variety, ridiculous plaids that are more appropriate for a 1970s sofa than 1860s trousers, collars that are totally out of date and cravats that are way too large and taken totally out of context. Narrow cravats with simple knots and smaller turn-down paper collars was the prevailing look for working class, indeed every class of men in the 1860s. When putting together civilian impressions far too many men cherry pick different elements they see from photographs regardless of date and without any idea of context.

In 1859 The Circular, the publication of the Oneida Community, reprinted this article from the Scientific American:

"Professor Hamilton, in an address on hygiene to the graduates of the Buffalo Medical College, denounced broadcloth as an enemy to exercise and health, but did not suggest a substitute. He says: "American gentlemen have adopted as a national costume, broadcloth-a thin, tight-fitting black suit of broadcloth. To foreigners, we seem always in mourning: we travel in black, we write in black, we work in black. The preist, the lawyer, the doctor, the literary man, the mechanic, and even the day-laborer, choose always the same unvarying, monotonous black braodcloth; a style and material which never ought to have been adopted out of the drawing-room or the pulpit; because it is a feeble and expensive fabric; because it is at the North no suitable protaction against the cold, nor is it indeed any more suitable at the South. It is too thin to be warm in the winter, and to black to be cool in the summer, but especially do we object to it because the wearer is always afraid of soiling it by exposure. Young gentlemen will not play ball, or pitch quoits, or wrestle or tumble, or any other similar thing, lest their broadcloth should be rended. They will not go out into the storm, because the broadcloth will lose its luster if rain falls upon it; they will not run because they have no confidence in the strength of the broadcloth; they dare not mount a horse, leap a fence, because broadcloth as everybody knows is so faithless. So these young men and these older men, merchants, mechanics, and all, learn to walk, talk, and think soberly and carefully; they seldom venture to laugh to the full extent of their sides."-Scientific American.

Merchants, Mechanics and Day Laborers all wearing black wool broadcloth..

"...every sober mechanic has his one or two suits of broadcloth, and, so far as mere clothes go, can make as good a display, when he chooses, as what are called the upper classes." -Horace Greely, Art and Industry as Represented in the Exhibition at the Crystal Palace (New York: Redfield, 1853), p.231

"...all so neatly and comfortably clad." "The stranger is involuntarily led to enquire, 'Where are the working classes-the tattered and half-fed, miserable-looking starvelings...of this native land.?'"-Welsh immigrant quoted in Richard B. Scott, Workers in the Metropolis: Class. Ethnicity, and Youth in Antebellum New York City (Ithaca,N.Y.:Cornell University Press),pp.174-175.

"...when operatives had finished the labours of the day, they generally changed their garments, and were as neatly attired as those in higher stations."-William Chambers, Things as They Are in America (London: William and Robert Chambers, 1857),p.343.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

I've posted this same article numerous times on numerous forums and I've stated over and over again how common black was not only for formal men's wear but for work clothing as well. 1860s men's attire tends to be rather sober compared to previous decades, fashionable textured fabrics such as tweeds in muted tones tended to be more popular than bright colors or patterns for informal attire. Even 1840s and 1850s American fashion, in reality, tends to be more sober than reenactors think, I call it the Gangs Of New York syndrome.

This.

Thanks.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[DougCooper]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

This may go down as one of the most important fashion authenticity threads in quite some time...though as Ian and Elizabeth mention, this has been around in various forms. The power of photos always helps...and is one reason I wish the AC photo contest used original photos for the cover as a means of education for us all. This photo would be an outstanding example. Instead of trying to find the most authentic looking reenactor photo, we could vote in one like this and start the discussion right off the home page.

To all: Ian's excellent quote on broadcloth from SA begs the question of whether there was also a preponderance of black kersey, jean, etc?

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

To all: Ian's excellent quote on broadcloth from SA begs the question of whether there was also a preponderance of black kersey, jean, etc?

This is an excellent point. I have in my collection a pair of black wool trousers from the 1850s and a pair of black broadfall trousers that date to the late 1850s through early 1860s, both trousers are made from all wool cloth with a satin weave. I also own an 1860s single breasted frock coat made from black satinet. The satinet this frock is made from weighs the same as superfine broadcloth typically used on original frocks, which is very light. It is double faced, in other words it is finished on both sides so you can't see the natural cotton warp, the only way you can see the warp is in areas where the wool nap is very worn down. This satinet is also so tightly woven it holds a raw edge without fraying, try finding modern satinet that will do the same. In fact, this cloth is so finely made when you look at the parts of the coat that have no wear there is no way of telling it apart from the superfine wool broadcloth the other frock coats in my collection are made from. This was supposed to be the "cheap" cloth! In comparison I have some black satinet made by Family Heirloom Weavers, there is no comparison to the original satinet. The weight, weave, finish, everything is way off.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

This may go down as one of the most important fashion authenticity threads in quite some time...though as Ian and Elizabeth mention, this has been around in various forms. The power of photos always helps...

Wait wut ?

If only I might cotch dem tape worm



CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

Some perspective as viewed from 5, late-war, common men (Lincoln Conspiritors)

Lewis Payne.......no button undershirt

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

Ed Spangler

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

Michael O'Laughlin