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Are these picture taking duds ?

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  • #16
    Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

    George Atzerodt

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    • #17
      Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

      Dr. Samuel Mudd

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      • #18
        Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

        Wait wut ?
        That picture is of the "spies and scouts," or something like that, right? Is there a good detailed analysis of who the men were and why they were dressed like that, anywhere?

        Because on the surface, if it's a photo of men who were supposed to blend into the surrounding countryside and look like locals, it's always intrigued me as a photo of period people trying to dress as much like what they thought locals would dress as possible. In other words, they're doing what we're doing, only with all the resources of someone who lived back then. It's definitely a country, southern look, but it's what you'd see around most battles.

        Hank Trent
        hanktrent@gmail.com
        Hank Trent

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        • #19
          Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

          O'Laughlin was rather dapper looking compared to the others. Is that just me or is Lewis Payne wearing broadfall fronted trousers. I know that it is seen in some Navy uniforms, but wasn't that for the most part out of style for civilian where by then, or is that a matter of Payne being among a lower socio-economic class and wearing what he could afford to get?
          Last edited by jake.koch; 03-29-2010, 10:40 AM. Reason: spelling, and further detail of question
          Jake Koch
          The Debonair Society of Coffee Coolers, Brewers, and Debaters
          https://coffeecoolersmess.weebly.com/

          -Pvt. Max Doermann, 3x Great Uncle, Co. E, 66th New York Infantry. Died at Andersonville, Dec. 22, 1864.
          -Pvt. David Rousch, 4x Great Uncle, Co. A, 107th Ohio Infantry. Wounded and Captured at Gettysburg. Died at Andersonville, June 5, 1864.
          -Pvt. Carl Sievert, 3x Great Uncle, Co. H, 7th New York Infantry (Steuben Guard). Mortally Wounded at Malvern Hill.

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          • #20
            Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

            This has been a great thread!
            Ian, I bet that black satinet made an incredible garment. I also have some FHW grey satinet that I thought of making a sack coat out of, but to think the original satinet is close to broadcloth is unbelievable. The satinet I have is no where near that fine. I like it because you really need to look for the cotton on the face side, but no way will it hold a raw edge. Again, that must be an impressive coat and material to get satinet to hold a raw edge, finished on both sides, etc. We sure settle for inferior stuff in our modern times.

            I really like that picture of the scouts. Talk about a variety of clothes, colors, weights, vest, etc. Did anyone notice how many of the men are wearing pinky rings? Didn't realize rings were that popular. I don't want to derail this clothing discussion for a rings discussion. Just thought that was interesting. I think this view of civilian clothes is very important. Todd Harrington and I were talking about it at the recent Sewing Confrence when looking at some of Brian's vest. One was very ornate and the first thing we thought about is if anyone showed up at an event with that vest, how many people would probably say they were a farb with that vest. The picture of the scouts does a lot for ditto suits, plaid pants, ties/no ties, vest etc.
            Great Pic, thanks for posting
            Rob Bruno
            1st MD Cav
            http://1stmarylandcavalry.com

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            • #21
              Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

              Originally posted by rbruno View Post
              Todd Harrington and I were talking about it at the recent Sewing Confrence when looking at some of Brian's vest. One was very ornate and the first thing we thought about is if anyone showed up at an event with that vest, how many people would probably say they were a farb with that vest. The picture of the scouts does a lot for ditto suits, plaid pants, ties/no ties, vest etc.
              Great Pic, thanks for posting
              What about context for that vest? When does it date to, what kind of material was it made from, was it a special occasion vest? The number of original fancy vests that were made for and worn by men for special occasions, such as their weddings, is countless. These do not necessarily count as "everyday" vests. There are certainly some very colorful original garments, but before anyone goes out and has them reproduced to wear at some event for whatever purpose, people need to understand a little more about their context. You can't look at a vest dated 1855 or 1845 and think, "Wow, that vest is off the hook! I'm going to incorporate it into my civilian impression for 1863."

              When you look at the Sack Coats worn by Ed Spangler and George Atzerodt they're both made from the fashionable textured fabrics in muted tones I spoke about earlier. These textured fabrics were very popular in the 1860s for informal wear, those famous "ditto suits" that everyone talks about but have little understanding of, are commonly made from these fabrics as evidenced by period photography. Even when these suits are made from matching patterned material, the patterns are never as wild and ridiculous as reenactors would like to think. They need to stop watching Gangs of New York for all their period clothing ideas.

              Michael O'Laughlin and Dr. Samuel Mudd are both wearing black broadcloth coats, notice the fine trim on the edges of all the coats. Also, how many big floppy collars and huge clown cravats are these guys wearing? None. Except for Lewis Payne in his undershirt, they all have shirts with band collars or white shirts with short turn down collars and narrow cravats. In other words, up-to-date 1860s fashion, despite their humble origins. If guys like large standing collars with large cravats they should attend 1840s-1850s events instead.

              Rings were a common accessory for Men in the 19th century, even well into the mid-part of the 20th century, the more photographs you analyze the more you see them. I have my Great Grandfather's pinky ring he wore everyday, he worked for Polonia Diary Co. in Chicago until he passed away.

              As for the earlier group photo, sure does look like summer there and many of the men appear dressed for it with linen clothing, even still there are a number of dark wool coats worn. Look at all those small collars, narrow cravats, short crowned/ short-brimmed hats and comfortably fit sack coats. If i didn't know any better I'd swear these guys all keep with the latest 1860s fashion.
              Ian McWherter

              "With documentation you are wearing History, without it, it's just another costume."-David W. Rickman

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              • #22
                Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

                Originally posted by Ian McWherter View Post
                What about context for that vest? When does it date to, what kind of material was it made from, was it a special occasion vest? The number of original fancy vests that were made for and worn by men for special occasions, such as their weddings, is countless. These do not necessarily count as "everyday" vests. There are certainly some very colorful original garments, but before anyone goes out and has them reproduced to wear at some event for whatever purpose, people need to understand a little more about their context. You can't look at a vest dated 1855 or 1845 and think, "Wow, that vest is off the hook! I'm going to incorporate it into my civilian impression for 1863."
                I certainly can't speak to all the details of the vest I was mentioning. I don't know if Brian post here, but from what I remember it was wool with a very ornate woven floral/paisly like pattern. The vest was a little rough in shape so you could see the back of the fabric to see how it was all woven together and the different original colors to make the pattern on the front. It also appeared to be well used from the wear on the vest and stains. I can't recall Brian's exact words, but from the design of the collar and style of vest, he put it in the 50s to 60s range of date. Again, please don't qoute me on this because I took a lot of pictures and talk about the vest but didn't take as many notes as I should have. And, I don't want to speak to much on something that is owned by someone else.
                Rob Bruno
                1st MD Cav
                http://1stmarylandcavalry.com

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                • #23
                  Re: Are these picture taking duds ?


                  Not a clear picture but you can see some basic details. Taken from: Source

                  Caption beneth it reads:
                  Luke Gilly
                  Breckinridge Greys
                  Lodge 661 F&AM


                  "May the grass grow long on the road to hell." --an Irish toast

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                  • #24
                    Re: Are these picture taking duds ?


                    This is a neat image....taken in 1860:
                    Source
                    Luke Gilly
                    Breckinridge Greys
                    Lodge 661 F&AM


                    "May the grass grow long on the road to hell." --an Irish toast

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                    • #25
                      Re: Are these picture taking duds ?


                      Source
                      Luke Gilly
                      Breckinridge Greys
                      Lodge 661 F&AM


                      "May the grass grow long on the road to hell." --an Irish toast

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

                        Refugee family evacuating a city during the war:

                        courtesy of the national archives
                        Luke Gilly
                        Breckinridge Greys
                        Lodge 661 F&AM


                        "May the grass grow long on the road to hell." --an Irish toast

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Are these picture taking duds ?


                          More scouts and guides for the army of the potomac....maryland 1862
                          courtesy of the national archives
                          Luke Gilly
                          Breckinridge Greys
                          Lodge 661 F&AM


                          "May the grass grow long on the road to hell." --an Irish toast

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

                            I do like the picture of the scouts and spies posted earlier. Not to derail the thread, but one amusing thing to note is the "wardrobe malfunction" on the bearded gentleman whose clothing appears to be light standing in the middle in the back. His vest is mis-buttoned. Glad to know I'm not the only one to make mistakes - not that I would try or recommend trying to replicate this at an event - but found it interesting.

                            Doug Frank

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                            • #29
                              Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

                              I wonder if the light colored frocks in Scouts and Spies were procured from the same source and if so, do they signify anything ans/or what was their manufactured and intended purpose.

                              I can't help but see similarity among them.

                              CJ Rideout
                              Tampa, Florida

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                              • #30
                                Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

                                Originally posted by OldKingCrow View Post
                                I wonder if the light colored frocks in Scouts and Spies were procured from the same source and if so, do they signify anything ans/or what was their manufactured and intended purpose.
                                I'm guessing they're going for the the same look that was stereotypically southern, like in this Harpers cartoon. The southerner with his broad-brimmed hat and light (linen?) frock coat is contrasted with the northerner in his dark (black broadcloth?) tailcoat and tophat.

                                Hank Trent
                                hanktrent@gmail.com
                                Hank Trent

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