Are these picture taking duds ?

[Hank Trent]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

I don't believe the argument is that men weren't "dressed with out a coat". The discussion should be, more a matter of what is situationally appropriate, in much the same way there is a time and a place to wear or not wear a tshirt & blue jeans today. When should men wear coats and when is it appropriate to go without? Folks sometimes tend to take pictures like this and use it for justification in inappropriate situations ( and vice versa for the "always wear a coat position).

All good points. I'm curious about the hats. Were the hatted men wearing hats indoors while working, or did they just grab them on the way out? One sees period accounts of men wearing hats indoors in bars, the theater, etc., so it's not impossible. But the other explanation is the one that would apply to me. I'm so much in the habit of grabbing a hat when I go out, that when I'm staying in a hotel, I'll sometimes even accidentally grab it when leaving the room to go to the restaurant or whatever that's still located inside the hotel, because it feels like I'm going outside. So I expect it could be a hard habit to break, even if one didn't pick up a coat.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

All good points. I'm curious about the hats. Were the hatted men wearing hats indoors while working, or did they just grab them on the way out? One sees period accounts of men wearing hats indoors in bars, the theater, etc., so it's not impossible. But the other explanation is the one that would apply to me. I'm so much in the habit of grabbing a hat when I go out, that when I'm staying in a hotel, I'll sometimes even accidentally grab it when leaving the room to go to the restaurant or whatever that's still located inside the hotel, because it feels like I'm going outside. So I expect it could be a hard habit to break, even if one didn't pick up a coat.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

There were certainly jobs in which men wore their hats indoors while working. The following engraving is from Hutching's California Magazine, Jan. 1858 issue. Distributing the mails in the San Francisco Post Office and Custom House:

[David Fox]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

I've followed this tread with interest. To address the original photograph and the original question: would you, gentle reader, run all the way home to spiffy-up so you could be immortalized standing on the wrong end of a mule?

[Becky Morgan]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

I don't believe the argument is that men weren't "dressed with out a coat". The discussion should be, more a matter of what is situationally appropriate, in much the same way there is a time and a place to wear or not wear a tshirt & blue jeans today. ...How many coats are hanging on pegs to be donned when the worker leaves the site?

I didn't phrase that very clearly, did I? You're correct, of course, and I would bet the coatless men had coats at hand (and hats as well.) I was wondering whether the surrender news had just arrived, too, because of the flag in that odd position. They were in such a hurry to go out for the picture that they didn't take time to hang it properly or plan to hold it up. To me, the rolled-up sleeves and hatless heads are a pretty good indication that they rushed outside at the photographer's call. That's what makes this picture so interesting: they obviously didn't have time to fancy themselves up, so we get to see waistcoats, shirt details, better pictures of hairstyles and so on.

The male-dominated shop is no doubt the answer. Think of the Chattanooga photo where there are no women around. Etiquette books aren't going to be a lot of help, because they tend to lag behind social practice.

I will say that Dad's CW veteran relatives wore suit coats to leave their houses, even in very hot weather, well into the 1930s. That must have been a habit entrenched in their youth, because their younger relatives didn't always wear coats and they found it mildly shocking. Dad recalled arguing with his great-great uncle because he was obviously uncomfortable during a long streetcar ride in high summer and no one around him had kept his jacket on. The brothers were also in the habit of asking permission of any non-family ladies present before they removed their jackets indoors. Note that they didn't sit around overheating; they asked to be polite, and no lady would refuse their request. When they left the house to get back on the streetcar, the jacket and hat went back on.

By the way, what is the fourth man from the left wearing? He has his coat buttoned up all the way, and he's missing a button, isn't he? By his posture and the way he's buttoned up, I wonder whether he's just out of military service.

[OlszowyTM]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

David Fox
Re: Are these picture taking duds ?I've followed this tread with interest. To address the original photograph and the original question: would you, gentle reader, run all the way home to spiffy-up so you could be immortalized standing on the wrong end of a mule?

Without a date location or purpose for the picture it is difficult to draw many conclusions from this picture. Are they local laborers/clerks or mule drivers/skinners/swampers or settlers just come off the road or is it a group of folks who knew the photographer was in town and dressed for the occasion (i.e. put on coats they weren't wearing minutes before? Without something to help focus the context it's hard to answer.

Becky Morgan Re: Are these picture taking duds ?Is his sleeve actually pinned up, or does he have a list or other paper stuffed through a buttonhole?

My vote is a heavily starched cuff pushed up just enough to get it out of the way but not so much as to "break it".

On hats- I guess my thoughts would go to some of the functionalities of hats. Warmth & protection. Ian's post shows work in a large warehouse environment that may not be well heated, which could result in someone liking to keep their head warmer. The workers also seem to be engaged in a moblie work task with some of them entering and leaving the building, which would make it easier just to leave your hat on than look for someplace to put, possibly get stuff dumped on it & then have to find it again when it's time to go back outside. The same is true of the last QM picture. I don't know what the weather in Apr of 65 was, but my hunch is that the inside of the building might be just a tad cooler than outside & some may have been wearing them inside. There are at least 3 holding hats in the front row who "may" have been asked to remove them to unblock those standing behind them. There are also several with a really bad case of "hat hair" that don't have them on, so I'm not sure we could draw any conclusions from this pic.

I do however really like the guy in the rear standing next to the left side of the flag's canton. The close up of him shows what looks like buttons in the front holding together a fold down flap. What's everyone else's take?

Last, but not least, let's talk about the 1st dude on the left in the checked pointed bottom vest. It appears to me to be very clearly cut at a cant to create points and not just pulled apart. I don't know when vest fronts began to shift from straight to pointed fronts-Is this the beginning of a change in vest fronts?

[lukegilly13]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

What's your all's take on cravat's outside of the collar? Some appear to be a single wrap arround the neck and on the outside of the collar (i.e. I can see the wrap) but I have read that it was common to do a double wrap before tying. Still others are concealed by the fold down collar and show essentially nothing but the bow/knot. Is this a matter of personal preference, a fad that was comming in or going out, or is one method more formal than the other?