Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

[Hank Trent]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

I don't know. I haven't researched it either. But I am going to say for my standards of accuro-neurosis any properly supported period variety which you can successfully pull fruit from (using period farming methods is the kicker) which is suitable for preservation, works. Though I would venture that like today, certain varieites of herlooms are better suited and commecially canned based on, among other things delicacy of flesh.

I'd also say that PEC would enter into it. While any variety that someone grew somewhere in the period would, theoretically, be "period correct" in that it could have been used, there were some tomato varieties that were dominant. A lot of "heirloom varieties" today are the jaguar-skin pants of the garden, saved because they were/are different, not because they were common.

If canning companies bought whatever was being grown that would be suitable, they'd still end up with a few dominant varieties because those were the most common varieties on the market.

Here's my guess, but it's just a guess, based on how common it was in the period: The Large Red and to some extent the Smooth Large Red.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

A lot of "heirloom varieties" today are the jaguar-skin pants of the garden, saved because they were/are different, not because they were common.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

Exactly. Evidenced in my previous post Stowell's Evergreen (an 1850's vintage, true period staple/ food corn) versus Bloody Butcher (w/ a high: Oooh!! Neat'O !!!! red corn factor).

As to tinning the tomato.. I wonder how one mitigates the acidic properties of the fruit for extended periods in a raw tin environ ?

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[John-Owen Kline]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

...Georgia Rattlesnake...Bloody Butcher...Cherokee Purple...Carolina Gold...

Are the names we use for these heirloom vegetables today the same as those used in the middle period of the 19th century?

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

Are the names we use for these heirloom vegetables today the same as those used in the middle period of the 19th century?

It depends. Some of them yes....a good amount will have no discernable provenance to their varietal namesake and even their origins. What I have done is use snippets of info gleaned from variety descriptions on heirloom seed bank websites to springboard my research in period agri literature and periodicals. I found my Floridian CS ancestor registered an orange variety in his namesake in the 1880's with Univ of FL looking through those resources, many of which are on "teh Google".

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[kaelin]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

I have enjoyed reading this thread, Thank you CJ for getting it going.

Here is some research that I have been doing here lately that might be helpful to the conversation:

1853 Popular Tomato varieties
Large Red

1858 Popular Tomato varieties
Large Red

1861 Popular Tomato varieties
Large Red
Large Yello

1866 Popular Tomato varieties
Large Red
Large Yellow
Feejee
Small Mexican


As for canning devices, my research shows that there were companies like Ball & Mason in New Orleans who were making jars for the Shakers at South Union in loads of 6000, embossing them with their name to enhance/guarantee the product.

Does anyone know how to attach a document, I had scanned these Shaker seed lists for you all to see. If you would like for me to email them to you, shakmus@logantele.com

On a personal note all the heirloom varieties of vegetables we use and plant are producing, We picked tomatos this week. We are an organic, primitive method farm. You can view my photographs on facebook.

regards

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

I have enjoyed reading this thread, Thank you CJ for getting it going.

We are an organic, primitive method farm. You can view my photographs on facebook.

regards

Thanks Kaelin. I am trying to redirect my energy in a more positive manner and hope others are as interested in the non-martial, everyday aspects and arts of mid-19th century culture. If cotton was King, then perhaps corn was Queen of Southron agrarian interests and self-sustenance. Granted a healthy ear of corn or tomato, produced from properly provenanced seed stock and cultivated using period appropriate propagation methods is not as cool as a hand sewn saddle or carbine; and I'll be the first to agree that transforming those golden kernels into meal, equine fodder or a fiery period libation (for religious purposes only) is not as testing of the mettle as completing a 500 mile - 6 month death march marathon event.....but there is wealth of history heavy, uncharted territory ot be had.

There might be, what..... 0.5% of the "hobby" who even remotely cares about this stuff ?

Period farm pest control wasn't exactly "organic" in many cases. Many of those pesticidal agents are no longer used and some not even available. Moths are getting after my ears and I am contemplating a light Sevin dusting. Not so much period correct I reckon, but I dont want to lose them, and it isn't helped by a wife and family who care less about the period correct farming aspects and more about the roasted ears of corn on the grill aspects.

I would be obliged for any tips you might share on the control of common garden pests in an organic method.

Perhaps you could also post a few of your favorite pics here for non-facebook members ?

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[kaelin]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

CJ,
I will gladly join you down this positive road!

Well I must first explain myself when it comes to the term "organic" & period methods. I am not a big fan of using the term Organic, but to save time I used it anyway.
We do not use any chemicals what so ever on anything on our farm, known as Peacefield. If we cannot kill the insects or find age old remedies, we suffer the loss just as those we study did. I can give you plenty of examples:
Example 1: I have planted corn 3 times this year already, lost once due to rain wash, second time due to poor storage of seed, and Lord willing this next one will stick!
Example 2: I planted one of the prettiest alfalfa fields you ever did see 3 years ago, dang weevils got that field last year because I could not get to cut it fast enough. Had I cut the hay, they would not have won. But so it goes, I have replanted again this year and did not make the same mistake twice.
Example 3: Potato bugs are the worst little insect ever. We have to kill them morning and night, pretty much through out the entire potato plants life.

To answer your question about insect & garden pests:
Bugs on plants- your hands and eyes. We have tried most of the ole wives tales and hardly any work. Nothing has come close to repelling like our hands and eyes.
Deer, coons, etc- I harvested a pretty nice size barn and split most of the wood for a fence. Most of our property is lined with split rail, you would be surprised how much that has cut down on a lot of pests.
Other bugs & worms- Chickens, while they are particular on some bugs(potato), they will eat most anything. Our chickens roam the yard, garden, pastures for this food.
Mosquito's- Martin houses or gourds will cut down the mosquito swarm quick.
Another method we do is constant cultivation. A good hoe will go along way. Any farm or garden with out a good hoe is in desperate need of a new manager. If I am not picking bugs or fruit I am hoeing a row. Another way of thinking is, there are bugs we cannot see right now that have planted their eggs of offspring for next year. When it comes time to plant next year, if you have not moved your garden or plot, these eggs will hatch and take over your crops where they are. This is one of the major reason for crop rotation. You should be able to find a chart on line showing the evolution of these bugs under ground.

Now I know some(2 people) of you are thinking..."this guy does this for fun". No sir we make a living off of our farm and sell at the local SKY Farmers Market and make a very nice side living off of our hard work. People are interested in this life style and these methods. People are more in to knowing where their food comes from and how its treated in the mean time. Plus we sell our hay and our composted horse manure. CJ don't you have horses?

We farm our small farm with Belgian draft horses, using equipment that my great grandfather used. Not everything we grow requires that kind of horse power but does require TIME & good ole fashion WORK.
We read from magazines & books like Small Farmer's Journal, 10 Acres Enough, Rural Heritage, Tarpley Wick, Taylors Guide to Heirloom Vegetables. To name a few.
We spend time talking to old farmers who "used" to farm this way and a lot of working time with Amish and Mennonite friends.

A lot of what we have learned came from our mistakes. Hmm now about those pictures I am still trying to figure this thing out....when I do you will see them.

[kaelin]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

Also let me add, these methods are for those who are willing to make the time & patience. If you are not, simply go to the store and buy the chemicals needed. I will tell you that it is far more rewarding when you know everything was grown by God, your hard work & nature. To each his own.

CJ, we should start planning a good farm event for 2012! I am excited.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

Example 3: Potato bugs are the worst little insect ever. We have to kill them morning and night, pretty much through out the entire potato plants life.

If you mean the Colorado potato beetle, that's a good example of a modern dilemma. Even if you mean the old-fashioned potato bug, the Colorado potato beetles, Japanese beetles, etc. are out there. Even east of the Mississippi, some problems from the east coast hadn't found their way to the midwest yet in the 1860s, such as orchard problems. The days when Cincinnati was a grape-growing center are gone, due to black rot, for example.

So if one only uses period insect and disease control methods, that doesn't necessarily produce plants equivalent to the 1860s, since there may be new diseases and insects. So if the goal is an accurate garden, does one use only period control, for modern problems? Modern control for modern problems? No control for modern problems? There's no single best answer.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Spinster]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

That's what children are for--to pick the bugs off. At least that was my upbringing.

Chris--did you plant a little fish for every three grains of corn? Or what are you using as fertilizer?

[brown]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

I, too, really enjoy this thread (as I sit around eating some heirloom vegetables). Mine, however, are rarely 1860s appropriate; heirlooms come from many eras.

I use to tend a kitchen garden for a home site in a local nature preserve. The house was pre-Cherokee removal, so was everything in the garden. They nature folk approved of using 1820s methods, as they felt it help the preserve. Mostly my garden helped the deer b/c they were unwilling to put up a split rail fence due to the volume of wood required. Kaelin, I'm not on Facebook, but would love to learn more about your farm.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

I just have a lttle plot next to my house, entirely rake amateurish and consisting of:

A substrate of Florida sand over which a bed of well mulched organic yard materials, last summers lake / beach clearing matter and horse manure (I don't own a horse but am often granted the great privilege of loaners) which has been well watered and turned over. I get an ear full from my old man that "I will never grow anything that amounts to produce in that soil"...this and the same fish advice plus "knee high before July." about every other week after he forgets he last gave me that little bit of sage mentoring the previous time. I have ears on the stalk as I type. These poor, pitiful little creatures, with their period correct silken shashes just aren't thriving like modern varieties using modern fertilizers and pesticides...and now enter: the moth.

Like most of my experiences in the hobby this has been more of a "history science lab" for me and for fun more than anything else. That and the competency in another old world skill, this to feed my family. Though right now it is with scrawny, half moth-eaten, worm infested ears of 1850's era corn, barely fit to feed a plow mule, we are working on that.

Is the one time application of a fish (pure protein) upon sewing, especially in light of the maturation cycle of corn (80-120 days depending on variety) seriously proven mojo or a farmer's tale ?

The farmer ON a Dell.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[kaelin]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

So if one only uses period insect and disease control methods, that doesn't necessarily produce plants equivalent to the 1860s, since there may be new diseases and insects. So if the goal is an accurate garden, does one use only period control, for modern problems? Modern control for modern problems? No control for modern problems? There's no single best answer.

Hank,
You are correct. We do not have the same environment as an 1860s farm or garden but we are trying to get close. We have found from trial and error, as you well know, that older methods of farming, work far better and are in a lot of ways healthier. I appreciate your thoughts , different view that I had never thought of before.

[Spinster]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

Is the one time application of a fish (pure protein) upon sewing, especially in light of the maturation cycle of corn (80-120 days depending on variety) seriously proven mojo or a farmer's tale ?

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Dunno. I think modern folks use bone meal in a sack to the same intent. We didn't starve. Got enough to call plenty for the winter and saved enough seed to go around again. But then, she planted by the signs, so maybe that's what worked and the fish were just to keep the children busy.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Anyone have any heirloom varieties in the ground ?

But then, she planted by the signs, so maybe that's what worked and the fish were just to keep the children busy.

That brings up another point. There wasn't just one way of old-timey growing. You had your people who planted by the signs, you had your book farmers, you had your "10 acres enough" and "5 acres too much" people. Corn in hills or rows? Drill or broadcast wheat? Guano, cow manure, or wear out the land and then move west?

On the topic of fish in particular, search fish manure in period documents to learn more. Commercial fish fertilizer made from fish byproducts today is still easily available. This site lists a typical N-P-K of 5-3-3. Bone meal has a lot more phosphorus and very little nitrogen.

Is the one time application of a fish (pure protein) upon sewing, especially in light of the maturation cycle of corn (80-120 days depending on variety) seriously proven mojo or a farmer's tale ?

When using whole fish or today, fish meal, the nitrogen is released slowly because it's bound with the protein, so it's actually just right for a long-season crop that needs nitrogen released gradually over time. Here's a more detailed discussion on the modern chemistry, which incidentally contains the delicious phrase "tsunami of pabulum."

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com