How to carry a concealed knife?

[Hank Trent]

One often reads about men carrying bowie knives concealed under their coats. The typical center-seam sheaths show up all the time with original knives, but how were they carried under a coat? Was it a different kind of sheath, or a separate rig, or what?

Looks like the larger knives were carried vertically on the back with the hilt at the nape of the neck, but I'm interested in a way to carry a little Sheffield-style bowie, only 9" long including the handle, so it would easily fit elsewhere, if I knew how to do it.

For example: "They are generally worn in the bosom under the waistcoat; but latterly they have had them made so long, that they cannot be carried there, and are now very frequently worn behind the back in a sheath between the coat and the waistcoat, the handle being on a level with the coat-collar." Link to source.

How is it worn "in the bosom under the waistcoat"?

Dictionary of Americanisms also suggests they were "concealed in the back part of the coat or in the sleeve," so I'd also be interested in what a sheath for the sleeve looks like. Another example of that: "[the Kentuckian] had a bowie-knife in his hand, the handle and part of the blade of which he displayed from under the sleeve of his coat, the usual resting-place of this instrument, exactly as the Sicilians carry them." Link to source. Gee, thanks; so, um, exactly how do the Sicilians carry them?

I tried searching google patents pre-1870, no luck. Any idea where to find a more detailed description or image of what to make or how this was done?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Shaun]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

Hank, I find the wording "in the bosom under the waistcoat" confusing as well. My first reaction when I saw the word waistcoat reminded me of the so called armpit daggers of the Scottish. As I understand the sheaths for those were carried along the person's side near the rib cage. If one were wearing a sleeveless waistcoat it could clip to the arm hole, or be slung across the chest. One could then access the hilt through the arm hole. Presumably since your quote mentions under the waistcoat it still would need to be accessible in some quick fashion, which to me points toward the arm hole of a waistcoat as the most likely access point. Perhaps these were more of a locally manufactured item and therefore would not show up in patent searches? Just thinking outloud.....

Shaun Riedell

[Hank Trent]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

Any ideas how to research this? I'd really like to make something for an event in about a week, so I can have quick access to a knife without the annoyance of it poking against my leg as I walk, but I'm stumped. I looked in some photo books of 19th century knives, lots of regular sheaths, no chest or arm rigs, though. Or was this really much less common than period descriptions indicate? But it does seem reasonably common to carry knives under coats, though, even including trial testimony about men pulling knives.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Elaine Kessinger]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

I have seen two vests (one a photo of an original and one original in person) that have interior patch pockets in the breast area. Perhaps a regular sheath could be secured inside these pockets in some way.

I do realize this is supposition and possibly a long shot.. but... it just might serve the function.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

Using the mantra of "The more things change the more they stay the same." I would look at an inside a tall boot. I have no documentation other than many soldiers in the last 25 years carry knives there.

[Hank Trent]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

Using the mantra of "The more things change the more they stay the same." I would look at an inside a tall boot. I have no documentation other than many soldiers in the last 25 years carry knives there.

Well, given the choice of wearing tall boots or having a belt knife knock against my leg in the heat of August, I think I'll choose the belt carry. :( Though we're still back to the same problem, unless you have an image of a period boot clip. Finding evidence of where the knife was carried isn't the problem, as indicated in my first post. It's how.

I was thinking of applying the same philosophy, though, in the sense that there are only a few practical ways to secure a knife to one's chest, with some kind of strap over the shoulder.

But Elaine Kessenger's post adds a bit of complication to that. In the days when wearing a vest was more common, a vest built to carry a knife might be more likely.

And then there's another issue. The majority of modern shoulder harnesses orient the knife upside down.

That's not the best choice if you need to pull the knife while wearing a period vest, in my opinion. Easier to reach down from above, where the vest collar naturally gaps, rather than up past the bottom of the vest where it's pulled tight by the vest buckle in back. So is the upside-down harness only because fashion has changed? Or was that the way knives were always harnessed?

I'm pretty sure that the frog stud on the sheath was probably used to connect the knife to wherever you were wearing it. But beyond that...?

Since a large number of male civilians in the hobby portray southerners in dangerous situations, you'd think various ways of carrying a knife would have been researched and discussed to death (no pun intended), like all the other minutiae of clothing, so I'm surprised not to be able to find more.

Are there any Old West forums where they might have studied this kind of thing?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Elaine Kessinger]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

You might try True West Historical Society. http://truewest.ning.com/forum

Edited to add: The person who gave me this link would like me to add the caveat, the above forum may need some guidance on evidence based discussions and sources should be further investigated. :-/ Maybe not as helpful as I hoped it would be. Sorry Hank, I did want to be helpful.

[RCR001]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

I don't think they had a sheath. Maybe a cloth to wrap it in, but certainly not a finely tooled piece of leather Americana. Wrapped up in a kerchief in your front pocket so's you can get at it quick and stab to death the one you're intending to murder with it. A knief's a cold blooded personal attack weapon, not a weapon of self defense.

IMHO.

[Hank Trent]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

I don't think they had a sheath. Maybe a cloth to wrap it in, but certainly not a finely tooled piece of leather Americana. Wrapped up in a kerchief in your front pocket so's you can get at it quick and stab to death the one you're intending to murder with it. A knief's a cold blooded personal attack weapon, not a weapon of self defense.

IMHO.

It never occurred to me that one would do without a sheath. I agree that one rarely sees tooling on period sheaths; it just didn't seem to be the fashion. But surviving original sheaths with their original knives are quite common. Why would a person not use one? From a practical point of view, removing a knife from a sheath, where it's in exactly the position you expect and slides right out, is much quicker than getting it from a rag, if you need access to a knife in a hurry. The cloth could tangle around it, or the knife could shift position within the pocket. What would be the advantage of using a cloth instead of a sheath?

Here are some examples of original knives with sheaths:

http://www.americanbowie.com/page2.html

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1888637

Provenance to John Brown:

http://www.vahistorical.org/lg/btw_knife.htm

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[RCR001]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

I just bet they didn't have a sheath with it. The ones that's survived are most likely the ones that was taken good care of for some reason or another. They're the ones with sheaths. The ones that the boys carried around with 'em in the field, didn't survive. Probably because they didn't have sheaths. And what about knives in general. Don't you figure peoople were loosing their knieves along they way anyway? A guy could pick up a knief on the ground easy enough. Especially if he was camped where some other unit had been camped two nights earlier. I bet alot of knieves didsn't have sheaths back in the day. I bet a lot of guys wrapped 'em in some type of kerchief and tucked it in their bedroll or saddlebag or havarersack or some where's so they could get at it if/when they needed too. Pack it without a sheath, Hank Trent. If you want to be more authentic.

[Hank Trent]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

I just bet they didn't have a sheath with it. The ones that's survived are most likely the ones that was taken good care of for some reason or another. They're the ones with sheaths. The ones that the boys carried around with 'em in the field, didn't survive. Probably because they didn't have sheaths. And what about knives in general. Don't you figure peoople were loosing their knieves along they way anyway? A guy could pick up a knief on the ground easy enough. Especially if he was camped where some other unit had been camped two nights earlier. I bet alot of knieves didsn't have sheaths back in the day. I bet a lot of guys wrapped 'em in some type of kerchief and tucked it in their bedroll or saddlebag or havarersack or some where's so they could get at it if/when they needed too. Pack it without a sheath, Hank Trent. If you want to be more authentic.

First, note that this is in the civilian folder, so I'm primarily asking about civilian usage, not military.

But I'm glad to know that John Brown was a farb because he was captured with his knife in a sheath at Harper's Ferry, LOL! And George Atzerod, the Lincoln conspirator, too. And the Texas shepherd killed by Indians in 1862, whose "belt and knife sheath were still there, but the Knife was missing."

Besides period images of men with knives in sheaths when the knives are carried on the belt so they're visible, there are also period descriptions of them being in sheaths when concealed:

"The real Bowie-knife has a two-edged blade, about nine inches long, slightly curved towards the point... the blade is covered with a sheath, and, when neatly got up, as some of them are, it forms a pretty ornament enough when peeping from under the corner of the waistcoat, or over the waistband of a pair of Texan trowsers." Link to source.

"It is carried in a sheath under the waistcoat, on the left side, and can be drawn in an instant. About one in forty of all the western people go thus armed." Link to source.

Now this is interesting, and fits with the idea of a possible pocket in the vest, though it only talks about pockets in the trowsers or back: "When openly carried, the knife is in a sheath attached to a body belt; when secretly, either in a narrow pocket purposely made down the straight part of the trouser's thigh, so that the bending of the body is not incommoded nor the weapon discovered; or in a similar casing down the back between the shoulders." Link to source.

We're getting closer. The following is in the era of ruffled shirts and blue coats with brass buttons, 1820s maybe? But still: "Inside of his vest hung dangling a leathern sheath, in which appeared the handle of a knife, of the length of a common carving-knife" Source.

That doesn't sound like it's in a pocket, since the writer could see the sheath, though a pocket (thanks, Elaine!) could certainly be another alternative, since it does seem attached to the vest and not a separate harness. "Dangling" could further mean it's attached by the frog stud.

Men carrying concealed knives seemed to be an impressive thing to easterners and foreigners in the antebellum era, when they went south or west or to dangerous places. They therefore wrote about it a lot and there's got to be some good detailed descriptions out there. So at this point, I don't think total guesswork is going to be necessary.

Edited to add: I just realized, that "dangling" and, from the previous quote, "peeping from under the corner of the waistcoat" could both possibly refer to upside-down carry, with the handle downward just at the bottom of the vest so you could reach it there. Hmm... Not the way it would first occur to me to do it, but I'll keep an open mind.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Linkstrap]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

There's a photo on page 154 of 'Packing Iron' that may be of interest. It shows a "Gambler's Vest", with a concealed carry for two single shot percussion pistols and a dirk (Maker unknown, circa 1835 - 1845).

Kind regards,

[Hank Trent]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

There's a photo on page 154 of 'Packing Iron' that may be of interest. It shows a "Gambler's Vest", with a concealed carry for two single shot percussion pistols and a dirk (Maker unknown, circa 1835 - 1845).

Yes indeed, that would be of interest! Looked on Amazon and that page isn't available online and unfortunately I can't get it by interlibrary loan in time. Is the pocket for the dirk just a long narrow pocket on the inside, or is there any way of anchoring the sheath in, or any built-in sheath, so the knife could be pulled out one-handed with the blade exposed in one motion? What do you think of the handkerchief theory, that one would put it directly in the pocket without a sheath?

I think that at least the question has been answered: why don't original modified sheaths or shoulder harnesses survive, for carrying knives under the vest? Because the mode of carry was actually part of the vest!

By the way, I experimented around with holding a knife upside down under the vest. It was about 50-50 for pulling it, compared to right side up, but an absolute headache for reinserting it in the sheath, since you can't see the opening and either need to lean over and try to angle the sheath up to see it, or blindly stab at your clothing. With the knife right side up, you can glance down inside your vest and see just where to reinsert it. So unless there's overwhelming evidence that all knives were carried upside down (and I don't think there will be), I'd definitely choose right side up.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[erik]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

Well, I think we are into a difficulty.
Solution, carry a pistol.
I know this does not answer the question but is certainly safer.
Tongue in cheek.
Sorry.

Erik Simundson

[Prodical Reb]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

I've got to look around but I saw a knife sheath attached to a pair of leather suspenders. Can't remember the knife oriention though. Common sense would bet on pulling down though! When I find it I'll post again. Found a set at Dell's

http://www.dellsleatherworks.com/bracedagger.htm