How to carry a concealed knife?

[MickCole]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

The Scots had been using armpit carries for quite some time before the War. Here's a link to one example (with pictures) of how a Scottish knife could be carried in a 19th C. vest. http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...84/index5.html
Mick Cole

[Spinster]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

Well, I think we are into a difficulty.
Solution, carry a pistol.
I know this does not answer the question but is certainly safer.
Tongue in cheek.
Sorry.

Erik Simundson

:wink_smil Not Necessarily. While I imagine Hank will use this knowledge more than once, he's also stated he has a need next week.

Those wagoners and assistants working directly with the equines/bovines for In The Van are required by the Wagon Master to have a substantial sharp knife at the ready, in order to cut an animal out of harness quickly, should an emergency arise.

Somehow I think shooting a tangled harness off an agitated mule would not increase the safety of the situation.

Sometimes these things aren't playhouse props......

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

Hallo!

Herr Hank...

The "gamblers vest" consists of two sides, or halves, connected together by two narrow belts at the bottom, and reinforced or braces by a wider cloth belt across the back.
The cloth portion of the vest is sewn over by red morocco leather. The leather panels have sewn on leather half-holsters for a pair of under trigger/under hammer percussion pistols.

The one panel has a sewn leather sheath type arrangement with a raised cetnral ridge (visually similar in form to the two skinning knives and steel "skinner" sets sold later for buffalo hunters). I suspect this pouchor sheath held a metallic powder flask for loading the pistols, and possibly a seconf ramrod for the second pistol.
The other panel has a flat loop holding a wooden ramnrod, and a small leather tube that likely once held a power measure or cap tube. Next to the pistol, carried at the back, is a "boot knife" type narrow bladed dagger with cross guard, in what apears to be a metal sheath held in place by a oval tab caught on a trapezoidal piece of leather.

In my research, I have never (universal so noted) encountered a shoulder hoslter or rig for knives. While the survival rate for leather sheaths is obviosuly leass than for metal knives almost all (unviersal so noted) sheaths fall into two broad categories:

1. those with a suspension loop above or below the sheath line,

2. or more rarely, those with a tear drop, round, or oval tab or stud that caught the sheath in a leather frog that contained the loop for a belt.

One would, could, assume that the the belt loop held the knife and sheath suspended from belts, typically at 90 degrees. But granted one could suspend a belt over the shoulder instead of around the waist. To date, I have never seen a surviving rig, an image, or an account that shows it being done.

On the other hand, a sack coat or better yet a frock coat, makes hiding a small, medium, or even large knife easy.

Curt

[Hank Trent]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

I'll just report on something I tried this evening. I sewed a buttonhole on the inside of my vest. That's it--just a buttonhole.

The stud of the sheath buttons into it. The knife stays in position, isn't visible when the vest is buttoned, doesn't cause a lump, and I can't feel it's there. However, I can reach in one-handed and pull it instantly, while the sheath stays in place, and replace it fairly easily back into the sheath as well. If the vest is unbuttoned, this description from the post above would describe it exactly: "Inside of his vest hung dangling a leathern sheath, in which appeared the handle of a knife," since it's all just dangling from the one buttonhole. That encourages me to think that it may be one period possibility.

It would also leave virtually no trace for future historians, just an ordinary sheath and a buttonhole. Actually, rather than cut a buttonhole in the fabric, I stitched on a 1" square of leather with a hole cut in it, for extra strength and to avoid damaging the vest if I wanted to undo it, so if that were removed, there wouldn't even be any alteration to the vest.

Obviously, there were knife pockets like the gambler's vest in the period. I don't know if the buttonhole is another period solution, but it's the slickest thing I've seen in a while, if I do say so myself. I'm going to try it and see how it stands up to a week of hard use.

1. those with a suspension loop above or below the sheath line,

2. or more rarely, those with a tear drop, round, or oval tab or stud that caught the sheath in a leather frog that contained the loop for a belt.

Here's a thought. One sees a lot of sheaths with the stud only, but no frog and no loop. What if the mindset when buying that kind of knife was: You buy a knife with a sheath that has a stud only. Then you have a choice of how to carry it. You can just stick it under your belt, of course, and use the stud to keep it from slipping through. Or you can get the frog with the belt loop to hang it on your belt. Or you can hang it some other way by the same stud, like in the gambler's vest: "held in place by a oval tab caught on a trapezoidal piece of leather." Or like--ironically--the little piece of leather I sewed inside my vest, before reading the details of the gambler's vest. Maybe the sheath with the stud is meant to be versatile, while the sheath with a loop attached is meant to be worn only on the belt.

That armpit carry illustration from Mick Cole is interesting too. If I'd seen that clip, I would have thought it was for a boot, so I'm going to remember that if I notice it on a period U.S. knife.

I kinda like the idea of shooting a harness off a mule, though. Surely that was some kind of sign of a good sharpshooter in the old west, wasn't it? :)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Spinster]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

I kinda like the idea of shooting a harness off a mule, though. Surely that was some kind of sign of a good sharpshooter in the old west, wasn't it? :)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

I'm gonna change Hank's assignment to the bovines. It will take a while to hack through a wooden bow as big as my wrist.........:wink_smil


I guess I better find my big honkin knife. Last time I saw it, I was cutting rope to tie up bales. That means its somewhere in all these crates and barrels and bales stacked up ready to go in the truck.....

[Elaine Kessinger]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

I'm working with the owners of the vests to get permission to post pictures. I don't want to create an over-representation, but gents with a need for "more pockets! please more pockets! never enough pockets!" should know that interior vest pockets are a period option. :-)

[GreencoatCross]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

For what it's worth, I found this patent online a few weeks ago and was intrigued. I have yet to see an original pair of these though, although I have seen at least one image that appears to show a soldier wearing this type of suspender arrangement. I would imagine that a sheath might be affixed to these on the wearer's back or maybe under an arm.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=o_V...page&q&f=false

[Tagamo]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

I have a Bowie knife, that I purchased in my youth, and since then began reenacting. I found it in my old stuff one day, and thought I would carry it in my boot at events. Worn it for years, and now I'm being told that is farbie. Thoughts, and comments, please.

[Danny]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

Most interesting and practical discussion, thanks Hank. For my civilian impression I have a similar need -- having decorum in public and avoiding a "ruffian" appearance that would alert attention. I settled on a smaller Bowie with a simple black leather scabbard, slipped on a wide belt with a Georgia buckle, much as any Midwestern farmer would carry, to go by many CDV's of the Victorian era. Would not even turn a head in any small town.

To frame this discussion as a matter of what today we call "concealed carry" is pointless. And, this being a civilian discussion means we should also avoid the temptation to discuss this as we do mil spec / issued items.

An exhaustive survey of accounts and CDVs referencing ways Bowie knives were carried will never reveal anything more usual and customary than those few examples already mentioned.

Rather, think about how many ways civilian men wore hats. Hundreds of ways, yet the only truly proven authentic way to portray hat wearing is to duplicate a particular CDV or account of one individual's usage. Yet, isn't it inauthentic then to portray the person only for the way they wore their hat? Yes it is.

Don't overthink this. Any individual creative method you come up for wearing a blade is as defensible as the individual creative way you wear your hat.

[Elaine Kessinger]

Re: How to carry a concealed knife?

This forum strives to portray the common people to the best our research allows.
While some garments and kit were worn in so many ways it offers a broad range of correct choices, we still must seek to categorize commonalities to discern what "common" choices were. We cannot throw our hands up and declare "Do what you FEEL!" That way lies [lack of authenticity].