Wool Source

[hardeeflag]

Can any of you direct me to a good source for proper weight wool and other lining cloth for civilian garments? Thanks.

[cprljohnivey]

Re: Wool Source

This place has some nice linens and wool broadcloth. Their wool flannel is very nice too. http://www.wmboothdraper.com/welcome.htm

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Wool Source

What sorts of garments, in particular? The specifics change the resources.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Wool Source

Can any of you direct me to a good source for proper weight wool and other lining cloth for civilian garments? Thanks.

If you can find a source for "proper" weight superfine wool broadcloth or doeskin wool please tell me, I've searched for years looking for the "proper" stuff. The best you're going to find is some sort of facsimile cloth from Abimelech Hainsworth or some other high end wool dealer and it won't be cheap. If you're incredibly diligent and have access to fashion districts such as New York or Los Angeles you can find high end superfine for less, but it still won't be as fine as original cloth. The best I've ever managed to find was vintage superfine wool broadcloth produced in Australia in the 1970s, the next best was cashmere/wool blend broadcloth at Britex Fabrics in San Francisco which sold for $495 a yard.

As far as accurate linings go, well, the great alpaca quest continues...I might have better luck tracking down the missing crystal skulls.:wink_smil

When it comes to putting together a high quality civilian impression be prepared to shell out a small fortune, far more than your military impression ever cost. I have yet to see very many people in the entire world capable of producing civilian garments of the same quality as originals.

Accurately reproducing civilian clothing at home by novice sewers is a stretch. It is possible, with enough practice, to replicate "issue quality" military garments, but to think for one minute that someone can apply their experience making a RD jacket to reproducing a civilian frock coat is a little self delusional. Take it from someone who owns a couple dozen of these originals.

Best of luck.

[hardeeflag]

Re: Wool Source

Ms Clark,

Wool flannel for overshirts, Also cloth for trousers, sack coats (I am not going to attempt a Frock but would like to see sources for good broadcloth), vests, etc. Also cottons for shirts. I know of some places but I have been out of the hobby for about 3 + years and some of those sources are no longer avaialbe. I also don't want to get into $30+ or more a yard for goods. I just am adding up the costs for goods and it is becoming daunting. I suppose that would dictate my social standing impression wise (real world and impression - times are tight :) Also any finishing items like silk tape, buttons, velvet for facing etc. Also cotton corduroy proper wale for period trousers.

About 15 years ago I made a lot of my own clothing but as I made a better living got out of it. Now in todays economy I see a need to do it again. I will probably start with some shirts and some work trousers to get my practice and techiques up again. Thanks for the help

[hardeeflag]

Re: Wool Source

but to think for one minute that someone can apply their experience making a RD jacket to reproducing a civilian frock coat is a little self delusional. Take it from someone who owns a couple dozen of these originals.

Best of luck.

That is what I thought and I respect that statement from some of the orginals I have seen...

[NYCivilWar]

Re: Wool Source

My collection, my collection, my collection

[Busterbuttonboy]

Re: Wool Source

"Take it from someone who owns a couple dozen of these originals...." Extent garments typically survive for a variety of reasons, predominantly because they were not worn on a daily basis or where exceptional and hence should not be considered representation of a 'standard.' I hope these couple dozen originals are being stored according to their textile base in appropriate archival boxes and in appropriate conditions.
"I have yet to see very many people in the entire world capable of producing civilian garments of the same quality as originals." By all means clothing was tailored by a variety of apprentices, journeymen etc, and while a great many frock coats exist like which illustrate superb dexterity with a tailors tape, needle and thread lets not think this is the norm.
As far as fabric goes, I've learned from a few honest to goodness tailors that indeed quality in 2010 is far below that of 19th or 18th century superfines,etc. Hainesworth I’ll echo seems to be the finest I am aware of. Also consider Kochen and Phillips cloth sold by Najecki at $56 a yard. http://www.najecki.com/repro/Wool.html. If it is your intention not to spend this kind of money per yard on fabric then do not fret about extensive and obsessively fine needlework. There are extent garments which are not made from overly nice textiles, again take them in their greater contexts.
Lets go back to Liz’s question. What socio-economic background do you want to represent? That will light the way to your fabric selection.

[rpierson]

Re: Wool Source

When it comes to putting together a high quality civilian impression be prepared to shell out a small fortune, far more than your military impression ever cost. I have yet to see very many people in the entire world capable of producing civilian garments of the same quality as originals.

Accurately reproducing civilian clothing at home by novice sewers is a stretch. It is possible, with enough practice, to replicate "issue quality" military garments, but to think for one minute that someone can apply their experience making a RD jacket to reproducing a civilian frock coat is a little self delusional. Take it from someone who owns a couple dozen of these originals.

Best of luck.

Ian,

I respect & understand your point, but REALLY hate to see outright discouragement cleverly packaged as "advice". How many horrible reproductions exist? A Bazillion. What's possibly one more? The chance to learn something about a craft and possibly acquire new skills is far more useful and rewarding than the finished product anyhow, no matter how it is constructed.

My advice? (not that you asked)

Go for it. Buy the nicest fabric you can afford and find the best pattern you can. Maybe do a practice run on some cheap stuff. The worst thing that will happen is that you may produce a garment that is too hideous to wear in public. If that is the case, consider refining your skills and trying again or paying big bucks to have one made by a professional. As long as you are not devastated by the possible worst case scenario, what do you have to lose???

A professional tailors 1st garment is not as nice as his last. You've got to start somewhere.

-Randall Pierson

[hardeeflag]

Re: Wool Source

Lets go back to Liz’s question. What socio-economic background do you want to represent? That will light the way to your fabric selection.

Well I live in the southwest and will most likely be sticking to displays and interpretation. I used to travel back east for the fix but can't see that too often anymore, so I am resigned to narrowing it down to living history display and or interpretation. That being said New Mexcio Territory was very sparcely populated and from what I had gathered from my personal research (been a few years since I have gotten back to research archives here) into characters living here were those trading with Mexican/American population the miners and further west trading with Indians in the Pima Villages on the Gila. Some were working the Butterfield Stage Line stops. Many had lived in Texas before coming to this Territory and before that lived in Missouri, Tenn and or other part so the south but there are some exception of some form northern states. Still working on some of the other occupations. One I have been looking into are two characters who ran a newspaper in Mesillia - The Messilla Times - Robert P. Kelley and Bredett C Murray. This is something I have given some serious thought to but not quite certain of my approach at this time. Robert P. Kelley was Killed by John R Baylor after less than flattering editorials about Baylor were published in that paper. I would love to know if anyone knows how to go about reproducing a period Newspaper or certain editions. I only have microfilm to work from. Another persona is Dr. Lewis Owings, CS Gov of Az Terr. Not sure about specific historical characters though...

Anyway...I would gather (I have not combed any of the census records for NM Terr) that rich men did not live in this area. They were seeking some fortune in mining and those selling items and supporting those seeking their fortune were the ones actually making the living. I am inclined at this point to doing the civilian route as the military route in this area is well, less than authentic to say the least. Plus I will be 44 and although in good physical shape I will for now will leave that to the younger men for now... So I will be amiing toward this...

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Wool Source

To all,

I'm not trying to discourage anyone trying to reproduce civilian clothing, I'm merely trying to make people understand what they're up against. If someone is willing to be honest with oneself and accept that their reproduction may never be perfect, but is the best they are capable of achieving at the time, then that's commendable. Study of extant originals is important to understand the variety of original garments that were worn during the period as well as the multitude of materials and techniques used to produce them. This is why I began collecting originals of my own, so I could understand better how these things were made.

My collection, my collection, my collection

What pray tell do you use to base the construction of your civilian items on? I'm merely trying to sober people up with the reality that is original civilian clothing. One really has to see it for themselves to believe. When I made my first foray into putting together reproduction civilian clothing I thought I had done a pretty damned good job on my first outfit. I had already spent years sewing together military garments and I felt my experience was ample. I was then fortunate to meet a couple highly knowledgeable individuals who "set me straight" by showing me the original civilian clothing in their collections. It was a sobering experience. I committed myself to bettering my skill and am better for it.

It all depends on your commitment to authenticity, I don't expect everyone to be as fanatically devoted as myself, but being honest about the quality of your impression compared to originals is also being honest to history.

Extent garments typically survive for a variety of reasons, predominantly because they were not worn on a daily basis or where exceptional and hence should not be considered representation of a 'standard.' By all means clothing was tailored by a variety of apprentices, journeymen etc, and while a great many frock coats exist like which illustrate superb dexterity with a tailors tape, needle and thread lets not think this is the norm.

What are you basing this opinion on? How many original civilian clothing items have you studied? Unlike Civil War military clothing where perhaps it's possible to examine a half dozen or even a dozen original examples, it is possible to examine hundreds of original extant civilian garments. Aside from the two dozen examples of civilian men's coats in my collection from the Antebellum and Civil War era I have also examined a dozen other original examples from various private collections. Given the sheer number of originals that do exist it becomes fairly easy to establish "standards" regarding period quality. While you can never say never it is possible with some amount of certainty to say that's men's frock coats, for example, are generally constructed this way and generally not constructed that way.

[AZReenactor]

Re: Wool Source

Far be it from most people to say anything but this sounds like the justification for most of the flaws in that other side of the hobby...

I respect & understand your point, but REALLY hate to see outright discouragement cleverly packaged as "advice". How many horrible reproductions exist? A Bazillion. What's possibly one more? The chance to learn something about a craft and possibly acquire new skills is far more useful and rewarding than the finished product anyhow, no matter how it is constructed.

If authenticity is a goal then it makes a tremendous difference.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Wool Source

Me thinks now....The transition into civilian events and activities isn't really achieveable due to the inability to meet historically representative methods and material standards of civilian garments

I try to have an undying commitment to history and authenticity is certainly my goal.

I have made my own garments which I see are all wrong. I had planned on putting myself out as a civilian impression in October.....but contemplating this .....not at the cost of historically representative accuracy.

Thanks for the enlightment.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[AZReenactor]

Re: Wool Source

Rich, I think good quality, yet well worn, clothing might be a better choice for Arizona at this time. A poor Arizonan who arrived in shoddily constructed clothing would be in very poor indeed as those lesser quality clothes would be more likely to wear out quicker and be even more expensive than fine goods to replace. Whether well made or poor quality, the biggest expense for Arizona goods was the shipping, not the goods themselves. Once those initial outfits wear out, unless you are wealthy enough to purchase replacements in the territory or are going native in your dress you are going to be clothed in little more than rags and tatters. The economics of the territory suggest that if you have to save up too by ready made goods being shipped in, it is better to save a few extra pennies and buy quality durable goods than to buy clothes that will soon need to be replaced again.

As regards printing, I've been running the Washington Press up at Sharlott Hall Museum for a few months now and been learning quite a lot about the trade here (although that impression for me is more focussed on the 1870s).

[bAcK88]

Re: Wool Source

Ian,

Do you have the provenance for any of the items in your collection?

Clothing worn by members of the upper socio-economic class has a tendency to be preserved while those of the working class are not. The vast majority of textiles in museum collections are from wealthy individuals, because that class had the ability to purchase larger amounts of fine clothing than other classes. We have a tendency to preserve the greatest example of an object, not its most common form, be it textiles or architecture. A larger wardrobe also means that clothes are worn less often and so will last for longer periods of time than clothing that is worn on a day to day basis.

If I, or my decedents, were to donate any of my clothing to a museum, it would most probably be my suit. This is the nicest garment I have, not only stemming from that fact that it is made out of nice material and is tailored but it is also in almost mint condition because I rarely wear it. And when I do wear it, it is for special occasions, such as weddings or graduations. Those stories or memories make that garment more interesting not only to me but to my family as well, and thus that suit is more than likely to be preserved because not only is it expensive and tailored, but there are now stories (which may be lost to future generations down the road) attached to it. My work clothes on the other hand will not survive because I wear them on a day to day basis for months and eventually they become so trashed that I either donate or even throw them away. So in 150-200 years, if we were only left with the original garments and no other source of documentation would you not agree that most people would have a false assumption on what we wore?

This point is only about 19th century lower class clothing. Now if someone was going to portray an upper class individual, then I agree 100% with your argument that they would have to shell out a lot of money to have anywhere near an acceptable impression.

Just my thoughts,