Wool Source

[rpierson]

Re: Wool Source

Far be it from most people to say anything but this sounds like the justification for most of the flaws in that other side of the hobby...
.

My Point, Mr. Groves, was to encourage people to TRY something new. Perhaps you believe the first garment ever made by C. Childs or D. Wambaugh was the "museum" quality replica you have come to expect from them. If one attempts these new skills with authenticity in mind and goes about it methodically, there is no reason that a person cannot produce a garment that is a top notch repro. As I said, you may make some bad (looking/fitting) stuff, but as long as you're learning there is no loss.

If everyone just bought from available vendors because they weren't as good at sewing as the current pros, there would be no Ian McWherters, C. Childs or N. $ekelas. Gotta start somewhere.

-Randall Pierson

[hardeeflag]

Re: Wool Source

Me thinks now....The transition into civilian events and activities isn't really achieveable due to the inability to meet historically representative methods and material standards of civilian garments

I try to have an undying commitment to history and authenticity is certainly my goal.

I have made my own garments which I see are all wrong. I had planned on putting myself out as a civilian impression in October.....but contemplating this .....not at the cost of historically representative accuracy.

Thanks for the enlightment.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Troy,

I hear what you are saying on this. I have been looking at the some period and just post period images of the area of Tucson and Messilla and for the life of me I cannot see how anyone could have kept clothing clean or dust free. (this is just my own reaosning) If one had the means they would have most certainly kept a second set of clothing for their best days and occassions and a set of daily business or if manual labor work clothing. Looking at the towns in period photo graphs, dust and dist on clothing would have been a constant issue. Here are two images of Messilla and Tucson (1970 for Tucson). Mesilla would have been the larges population of the area and 85 - 90% Mexican. I would also gather traveling between any of these two area one would have most definately needed to have a six shooter and a rifle that could reach out and touch someone. I comment again that James Tevis carried two six shooters when working on the Butterfield Stage route.

Here is an 1870 image of Tucson. Messilla would have been larger but this is an idea of what the streets and towns looked like. I have an image of a painting in Messilla in 1850 but it is at home.

[wade03]

Re: Wool Source

The reproducing of civilian clothing can be over exaggerated at times. Do I believe civilian clothing is hard to make? Yes. Do I think that anyone who has made a fatigue blouse from kit is ready to make high end civilian clothing? No. But tailors were humans, so it is not unachievable. Just like it has been stated on here already, you have to want to work at it to get good. But keep in mind that when you are making civilian clothing for yourself at home you are already doing it wrong. The majority of tailored clothing was made in shops by several hands. A tailor in New Bern, NC in 1835 claimed that he could make a entire suit from cut to finish in 12 hours. He had 6 apprentices working with him. You could spend weeks sewing your civilian clothing to make it right, but your probably not a tailor by trade. I respect anyone who has made the sacrifice to "do it right," civilian clothing is difficult and requires a commitment. But I don't like seeing others getting discouraged because they want to start the learning process.

Now getting materials for civilian clothing is difficult. Proper broadcloth is non-existent, which has already been mentioned. The modern stuff is not nearly as dense as period stuff is. But worsteds, flannels, linens and cottons aren't as hard to find. look at William Booth Draper company, Burnley and Trowbridge, Needle and Thread, even modern fabric stores some times have good stuff. Heck I've actually found polished cotton silesia at Walmart! But you have to know what you are looking for.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Wool Source

But keep in mind that when you are making civilian clothing for yourself at home you are already doing it wrong.

Good Lord, Moses, Mary and JoAnn of JoAnn's fabrics....seems like an ole boy can't win.

Your saddle is wrong, your banjo is wrong, your music is wrong...... home grown, hand made clothes ? Wrong too.

and I considered myself relatively well-read .....at least in terms of the average swinging bayonet in the ranks.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[hardeeflag]

Re: Wool Source

I guess garment making and making flawless period clothing was not my intention from the beginning but sources for said material. Making some items seems to be a plausible task. Would I attempt a frock? No not hardley. An overshirt, shirt, drawers or work pants, yes.

I suppose none of us would be authenetic if you took every thing into consideration we are exposed to now, flouride build up in our bones and brain, fillings, GMO foods, vaccines and its effects on our bodies as compared to someone in the 1850s-1860s, our education (I have seen the writing prose compared to then and now and I would say we have declined acorss the board on that one) and on and on and on.....

I guess for the most part that is not going to have an effect on effective living history presentation...

I am just trying to narrow down the correct impression for this area and or occupation. A lot of these men by the time it was evacuated either went to Texas or joined the CS Army when they reorganized in San Antonio or if they didn't leave tended to be unionists.

Here is an 1854 lithograph of Messilla:

[VMurphy]

Re: Wool Source

Rich...first let me tell you that I find very high quality wools, some Italian imports as well as linens at very very reasonable prices ($10yd, sometimees lower) at http://www.fashionfabricsclub.com

I've studied period clothing for years, albeit, primarily women and childrens, but for the past few years, also men's clothing. I agree that the very vast majority of clothing that survives from the mid 19th c. is higher quality tailored clothing that was "special" and thus saved for posterity :)
But there are some work/every day clothing that got saved. I've also read many journals and diaries, primarily of women, but also some men's letters. Home sewing was a huge part of women's work. One in particular that comes to mind is that of a wife of a doctor in southern La. She was responsible for making not only her clothing and that of her children, but also that of three slaves and her husband. She spoke often of making her husband linen sack coats and trousers and how quickly they became soiled and worn!!!
YES...civilian clothing was made at home. Perhaps not so many frock coats, but there are hundreds of records and original artifacts of men's daily wear clothing, including sack coats, trousers, vests, shirts and underwear that were all made at home by the lady of the house or slaves, or daughters or perhaps sometimes hired out to a neighbor that was a good seamstress in trade for other needs.

There were good seamstresses and bad seamstresses...the lady mentioned often comlained that "she hated sewing" ; it was a chore she dreaded most.

Regards
Vivian Murphy

http://www.themantuamaker.net

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Wool Source

Hallo!

If the horse we had to ride was Perfection, we would all be walking.

While all of these points are indeed valid, at the end of the day they can come down to where on the Sliding Scale of Imperfection our Mental Pictures of what we see ourselves doing and where we see ourselves fitting in allowing to be at the moment.

When and where making the choice to strive toward the unreachable goal of being Perfect is, IMHO, the key to where we, our pards, and the events we attend set the Bar.

Taken to the negative strive, this can become the old defense of Farbery, in that since we cannot be "perfect" there is no reason to strive in that direction so there is nothing "unhistorical" enough to be "that bad."

What does it "take" to Suspend Disbelief and to have a Believable Image varies at the s-celled Farb, Mainstream, Progressive, or Hardcore/Authentic level of play? On the Sliding Scale of Imperfection we all tend to be spread out somewhere. For example, I do not intend to burn my "premium maker" Federal uniforms because they are dyed with aniline dyes that simulate the appearance of indigo dye. But on the CS side, I do wear logwood or sumac dyed jean.

IMHO still, Herr Ian is entirely correct.

But sometimes one needs to answer the question in the spirit in which it was asked, hoping that the standards and expectations of the AC do not fall too short in the varying Mental Pictures. IT is ALWAYS good to know the ultimate historical destination or goal, even when it fals short of Perfection. And in the striving, try to fall closer to the Perfect than the Farbery.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt
Walks more than rides Mess

[western reb]

Re: Wool Source

Thank you Rich for providing the lithograph of Mesilla.

Having visited Mesilla last Sept. and knowing my wife's family hails from there, it certainly is interesting to see how it appeared in the 1850's vs. present times (though some might argue not much has changed since then except for the addition of massive Pecan trees south of the town).

As for a particular impression in the New Mexico Territory, perhaps a store owner/shop keeper might be of interest to you. It certainly would be an interesting & informing lecture to give to the public during your living history talks about the invading Confederates and how Confederate forces liberated some of the local stores of their goods in order to re-clothe some of their men while paying for it with Confederacy currency. Best of luck with your impression.

[JimKindred]

Re: Wool Source

For a place called the "Authentic Campaigner," there sure do seem to be a lot of people on here who get angry when somebody posts documentation that they might be wrong. If somebody posts proof that creating a civilian impression is difficult (way more difficult than a soldier impression), that should inspire the membership here to work harder to look the part.

The funniest part about this entire discussion is that some of the detractors who are basically calling Ian an elitist are people who have themselves been accused of being an elitist or have proudly carried that mantle.

Its truly this type of nonsense that makes this hobby less fun than it once was. Rather than doing research to prove that Ian is wrong, after he posts detailed documentation, people just say he's wrong to make themselves feel better or to excuse their corner cutting. This is not the same A/C that used to exist. And this is not the same hobby that I joined in 1994.

Patrick

Patrick,

Two rules you missed on your way to the forum -

Be Nice - We don't expect this place to be Woodstock, but make an effort to show respect and courtesy to every poster.

Sign your Full Name to every post - that your username contains your real name is NOT sufficient. We want your full name (first and last) to appear at the bottom of every post.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Wool Source

While all of these points are indeed valid, at the end of the day they can come down to where on the Sliding Scale of Imperfection our Mental Pictures of what we see ourselves doing and where we see ourselves fitting in allowing to be at the moment.

For me....It all comes down to the historical record, my mental pictures and all the positive stuff aside.

I have gone above, much like the OP in this thread and beyond to do what ever it took cost or effort wise based on what I never questioned as anything but sound mentoring and research. Every EBUFU event I have ever attended I constructed or acquired a specialty garment for....from broadfall trousers for an 1860 civilian event at the recommended standards set by an approved vendor here to Charleston provenanced garments for coastal Georgia fortificatication events to yes.....gasp I was working a civilian frock for next month.

Lesson learned. I know now i had it wrong. I am regretful that I have misrepresented history in my impressions which is probably hurtful to my pride more than anything.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[hardeeflag]

Re: Wool Source

For me, I will and have always strived to the best of my personal ability in research and pocket book to do as historicly accurate as possible. I will attempt less in scope to achive more in the presentation and historical accuracy ... My whole quesitoning in the begining of this thread was to acheive small items like shirts, drawers, maybe work trousers, to off set some of the expense. Having been out of touch for 3+ years with the hobby and a physical move some of my notes and documents are not where I thought they were and other sources have gone by the wayside...

That being said I don't have unrealistic expectations for the payoff in events for my efforts in authenticity and historical accuracy. I can go to all the expense, time and effort in the world but it will never completely transport me to 1861 - ever. Can I have pride in doing it right, sure. But I know where to cut my losses and how much of a time and investment I get for the payoff. I will do my best as possbile and buy as top shelf as my pocket book will allow but no matter what anyone says, doing this has a compromise in authenticity and accuracy somewhere and I suppose it is up to what standard and level is acceptable. I personally will keep my scope small/narrow and shoot for best I can do.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Wool Source

RS,

I have deep AZ roots and take my middle name from an AZ town which my ancestors copper mined in. I am encouraged to see someone taking the accurate interp of its legacy serious.

I assume that is you in your avatar ? You seem to have the look. Keep up the effort and good works.

I would like to know, seeing self-constructed garments are off the table.....what vendors can produce acceptable civilian garments meeting a historically representative level acceptable for the events associated with this community ?

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[hardeeflag]

Re: Wool Source

RS,

I have deep AZ roots and take my middle name from an AZ town which my ancestors copper mined in. I am encouraged to see someone taking the accurate interp of its legacy serious.

I assume that is you in your avatar ? You seem to have the look. Keep up the effort and good works.

I would like to know, seeing self-constructed garments are off the table.....what vendors can produce acceptable civilian garments meeting a historically representative level acceptable for the events associated with this community ?

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

CJ,

I am trying to take my research I have and what I have to work with and make it the best I can. Military is really bad here and I gave up long ago trying to think I could change the mindset here as far as that goes. You can with about 5 to 10 people maximum but that is it. Events are very small if that is what you can work with. Anything larger and opening anything out to other groups really brings the event quality way down. I figure going civilian, I can control my own little environment to my own efforts to make it what I can. Especially doing interpretation and LH displays. I always dreamed of doing my favorite research topic the Arizona Battalion but that probably will never happen. So here is were I am heading... Sent a follow up with a PM..