Civilian sidearms?

[mehrsam]

There is a popular photograph of Alfred Waud sitting on a boulder sketching - it is believed he is at Gettysburg - and it appears he has a military style holster on his left hip. Upon doing a search on the Internet, I found references that indicated he did arm himself at times. I assume highwaymen, robbers and outlaws still threatened travelers during the Civil War.

How common would it have been for civilains to carry sidearms? And what would they have carried? Would it have been easy for a civilian with a proven need to obtain a military issue sidearm?

http://www.bhere.com/plugugly/waud/

[cwbelle]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

I have another question to add to the one above. I'm putting it in this thread because of being a civilian (and am curious about the question above in relation to mine) however if it should be moved somewhere else, please do so.

I have a reproduction of a (British) Tower Percussion pistol, sometimes also referred to as a 'Tower Horse Pistol' (I believe). I have seen and have the picture of an original flintlock tower (very similar to mine except for the differences in lock) that is on display at the Canadian National War Museum in Ottowa--where I visited two summers ago. It dated from the first decade of the 1800's. I think this is a predominately British side-arm however I have also read somewhere that percussion tower pistols were used in the Civil War by some individual Confederates (perhaps a random "family weapon" left over from immigration from Britain or left over from the capture of weapons during the War of 1812...?). I was wondering how true this might be and if anyone who knows more about the tower could perhaps comment on its history and give me some more information regarding it. I'm also wondering how appropriate it would be to have one as a Yankee and also a civilian...obviously depending on where I am I wouldn't carry it with me (but in what situations might I have carried a side-arm?)--also, would it even be appropriate to have it in "my home" as a lady during the 1860's in the north?
Thank you in advance!
Respectfully,
Miss Lisa-Marie

[courier]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

I have long noted the picture of Aldred Waud armed.But,this is a private purchase item.The gov't did not issue sidearms to officers only to cav enlisted.Waud had been captured and was fully aware of the need for personal protection.
As far as the Tower pistol,it is a large caliber and would not serve as a sidearm.But a lady living alone where the armies were passing through could have kept it loaded and available for personal protection.It could have easily gone to war very early on,but would have been thrown away or confiscated.It would be quite useless to an infrantryman.These were made to be carried as pommel guns(on horseback-pommel holsters).Holsters were rare and did not start to become common until mid-century.Even in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century,holsters were not very common on civilians.
Most of the cowboy dress we have become used to in the movies/tv did not exist in reality and was not even created until the early 20th century.
Regards,Richard Harris

[Clark Badgett]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

Most of the cowboy dress we have become used to in the movies/tv did not exist in reality and was not even created until the early 20th century.
Regards,Richard Harris

And just where did you get this info from? Yes I'll concede the clothing part, but a large portion of the western population carried firearms all the time, and did so in cheap holsters. And another thing, civilians in this area seemed to go armed quite often, even here in the city of Louisville, where newspaper reports appeared commonly about someone shooting themselves in the leg with a cheap pocket pistol.

[TeamsterPhil]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

Clark,

According to many primary sources (the diary of Teddy Blue comes to mind, and diaries/letters of bullwhackers & muleskinners on the Santa Fe Trail) most of the sidearms (handguns) were carried in saddlebags -- if they were owned at all. Longarms were much more useful to the working cowboy or freighter. Most of the towns of any size west of Topeka KS banned carrying sidearms in town. In the post-war cattle trade era, man walking about town with a Colt in a holster would have not been seen in the quatities that most imagine. There is even a line of research leading some to believe that the Earps had to pull their pistols from pockets & belts at the infamous OK Corral fight.

This is not to say that cheap mass produced holsters weren't out there - they were. The overwhelming numbers we picture have become more the stuff of legend than reality.

Phil Campbell
3rd stagecoach stop on the right along the Santa FeTrail

[courier]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

Clark,
Generalties are difficult.I cannot say what the percentages were of people carrying side arms and I don't dispute that people shot themselves or others.But the fact that it appeared in the paper shows that it was somewhar unusual.Just as we argue here that early war photographs of guns and knives were studio props or got pitched,the same is true for normal citizens having their image made.
I think that it would be very unusual to a see a citizen carrying a pistol in a holster on the streets of Louisville.Wild Bill carried his matching Navys in his sash and he was involved in one of the only documented faceoffs in Wild West history.One mind you! The very commonly seen Buscardero belt holster rig was invented in the 20th century for the early movies. I have never seen one dated prior to 1900 or so.
One very good source is "Packing Iron",by Zon.I cannot find any mention of the Army issuing holsters to the Cav prior to 1855 for the lighter Colt Navy.
The Army did buy the Whitneyville Colt Walker and it was issued to some dragoons.They weighed over 4 lbs and were,i believe,"Pommel Guns".
First model Dragoon Colts were issued around 1848 and may have been used in privately purchased holsters,probably open top. Source: Randy Steffen,"The Horse Soldier,1776 to 1943.
Reagrds,Richard Harris

[Clark Badgett]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

I ain't talking about buscadero holsters, I know they are more modern. I'm talking of the mail order mexican loop and "Slim Jim" styles that seem to be very prevalent on the artifact markets. Remember ever mail order company of the era carried many differnt styles of holsters, and if they weren't selling then they would not have carried them for so long. And those guys shooting themselves with the unsafe pistols, happened very often, almost weekly.

[Clark Badgett]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

Clark,
Wild Bill carried his matching Navys in his sash and he was involved in one of the only documented faceoffs in Wild West history.One mind you!
One very good source is "Packing Iron",by Zon.I cannot find any mention of the Army issuing holsters to the Cav prior to 1855 for the lighter Colt Navy.
The Army did buy the Whitneyville Colt Walker and it was issued to some dragoons.They weighed over 4 lbs and were,i believe,"Pommel Guns".
First model Dragoon Colts were issued around 1848 and may have been used in privately purchased holsters,probably open top. Source: Randy Steffen,"The Horse Soldier,1776 to 1943.
Reagrds,Richard Harris

Are you trying to say here that there was only one face off in old west history? Have you forgotten that little fracus in Tombstone, that did take place. There are some unanswered question regarding what brought it about and then what happened afterwards, but it's recorded as happening from many sources. There were many more.

And I don't think we were discussing army holsters, rather civilian holsters.

[MarionRifles]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

In answer to the original question,some civilians did carry pistols,although they would have been small caliber weapons.There were alot to choose from,from small single shot pistols (percussion and rimfire),to small framed revolvers.These are easy to hide in a woman's purse, as well as a man's pocket, which explains the frequent reports of folks shooting themselves in the foot(as well as other places).As far as a Tower Pistol goes, it's possible that one could have ended up as a home defense gun.I have a family inventory from the death of an ancestor in 1840 showing that he owned a "military pistol" along with his longrifles.If you are interested in carrying one to historical events, I'd suggest finding a nice small brass framed single shot pistol.You can still find originals out there in the $200-$300 price range.Just don't try to fire it!

[KarinTimour]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

Folks:

I've been following this discussion with some interest, but I think we need to put some context in the conversation.

Answer the following question: How many of us carry guns every day in our normal 21st century lives? Or have them in our trucks/cars/briefcases?

I'd suggest that the answers to that question would vary a great deal based on things like a) do you live the country? town? village? unincorporated area? rural area? b) does your job involve law enforcement? c) are you likely to be in a position where you might have to defend yourself, or put down an animal that has injured itself beyond repair? d) do you carry large amounts of cash, negotable securities or do you regularly travel alone through very dangerous stretches of country? Do you live/work currently in an area of rebellion or unrest (Haiti and Iraq spring immediately to mind).

We need to look at the same types of questions when evaluating whether period civilians would have been armed, and if so, do we want to include firearms in our impressions. First of all, if you are going to spend $200-300 on a piece of reenacting gear, are you ok with a stranger taking it from you and keeping it for the rest of the weekend? At an immersion or bridge event, if you have a firearm, and the military finds out that you do (and or searches you or your possessions) they are going to confiscate said weapon. You won't have the use of it or know where it is for the weekend. Hopefully at the end of the event someone will remember it is yours before everyone gets in their cars and drives home. Hopefully it won't be damaged. Hopefully it won't be left out in the rain, drop out of someone's pack, pocket or blanket roll while on the march.

Depending on the context, having a firearm at the wrong place and in the wrong time can get you a) arrested for the rest of the day or the rest of the event; b) shot (which at an increasing number of immersion events means that you are out of the event permanently, time to go home).

The previous poster wrote:
In answer to the original question,some civilians did carry pistols,although they would have been small caliber weapons.

Again, this goes back to "what civilians are we talking about": The men who are too old to enlist, but who might be supporting their grandchildren, daughters and daughters-in-law by hunting when they got the opportunity? The woman alone who has been left in a relatively isolated cabin, with one or more 10-14 year old sons to hold down the farm? The Home Guard? The guerillas? These are all citizens who might well have had a firearm during the war.

You wrote:
There were alot to choose from,from small single shot pistols (percussion and rimfire),to small framed revolvers.These are easy to hide in a woman's purse,

I'm afraid most women in our time period didn't carry "purses" as we know them today -- very little need, as going to the store didn't require cash, they usually didn't own keys, identification, or the various items that women need to carry in purses these days. Period purses that I have seen have been very small -- mostly "miser's purses," which are roughly dumbell shaped, with each end fitting over your belt. One end could carry something very small, like your visiting card case. The other end could maybe accommodate the volume of two rolls of quarters.

Women DID tend to wear detachable "pockets" (remember "Lucy Locket who lost her pocket" from the Mother Goose tales?). These were the equivalent of a generous poke sack, suspended off a tape that ran around your waist under your dress. You could potentially carry a small gun in your pocket, but again, these were subject to seizure.

I've not seen a Tower pistol, but from the descriptions, it sounds like a rather long, heavy object, not something you could carry around much or for very long in a dress pocket.

You wrote:
Just don't try to fire it!

Increasingly at immersion or authentic events, civilians are also held to the same firearms inspection standards as military reenactors. Increasingly, at authentic events, civilian and/or military coordinators are going to want to know if civilians are carrying or have in their possession firearms, if for no other reason than liability issues. Some events explicitly state that civilians are not permitted to bring firearms, and if they are found this imay be grounds for asking you to leave the event.

To return to Lisa-Marie's question, would it be period correct for her to have a gun in her house in the North, the answer is probably -- and if you are a loyal citizen of the United States living in a Northern state, your house probably won't be searched.

It also might be useful to hear from civilian coordinators of events that are held in the Northern states whether your event(s) allow civilians to bring firearms, and if so, what restrictions or rules are required of firearms owners.

If you are a Copperhead or a Confederate sympathizer in a Northern state, the chances are better you might be searched, depending on the event. If you are a Confederate or just a Southerner (even a suspected Unionist) living in a Southern state, especially an occupied area, or one that is rapidly changing hands (Winchester, Virginia comes to mind) the chances are much better that your house will be searched by one or both armies and/or the Home Guard. If you are a refugee, you better consider it a certainty and plan accordingly.

To take a minute to think about modern concerns relatled to possession of a period gun at an authentic event:

1. As stated above, these can be relatively expensive "props" -- are you ok with taking it to the event and never getting it back? As a friend once said "never take anything to a reenactment that you would be devastated to have destroyed or significantly damaged.

2. Think seriously about how you are going to keep track of your gun throughout the weekend. There are an increasing number of children at period events. How are you going to keep your firearm secure from them finding it and playing with it? Tents are not secure, and are only used at a limited number of events to house civilians -- usually we are all sleeping together in a period house or in an "off-stage area" with no place to keep anything secure. How much of your energy is going to have to go to keeping in mind where your gun is?

3. Even if your gun is completely non-functional, do you want to have children potentially playing with it and learning that when you point a real gun and pull the real trigger, nothing happens? What about when they find some careless person's loaded gun at a friend's house several weeks or months later, point it and pull the trigger? Many of us have real, functioning, often loaded guns in our houses or vehicles. We all (especially those of us who don't have minor children in our homes need to be conscious of gun safety when at events. You can not assume that someone elses' child has attended or been taught any of the very sound lessons of gun safety.

My two cents, your milage or opinions may vary,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, hats, balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Solderis' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[Clark Badgett]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

Another thing to think about here. Depending on whether you are from a rural area or urban area does indeed have a lot to bear upon what type firearm you would own. If you are a city dweller, you would probably carry a small personal protection type of pistol, you would not have much use for a longarm, unless of cource you are a peace officer. If you live in a larger rural type town, there is a good chance that you would own a fowler, good for hunting and protecting the home, also maybe a pistol if you have the $$ to spare. Now, being that most rural dwellers at that time were little more than sustanence farmers, if they could own a firearm, then it would be something that they could get the most milage from. It could be a fowler, or a rifle, or maybe an older version of both. Both Flint and Percussion type arms stayed in use well after they were outdated. One thing that does get greatly overlooked by many is that percussion pistols and surplus muskets played a major role in the post Civil War west. For what this is worth, I have seen a late 1870s IDed photo of a cowboy bunk house and almost all the firearms hung on the wall were percussion, and they weren't arranged for display either. Personally I believe that most folks in the frontier era would have preferred a rifle of some sort. You can hunt deer, and antelope with it, they made shot shells for some of the more popular rifle (and pistol) calibers so you could in a pinch hunt small game, and you can defend youself at far greater distances if set upon by hostile Indians or outlaws.

As for Teddy "Blue" Abbott saying they didn't carry pistols, many of his contemporaries said otherwise. And that isn't the only statement in which there is disagreement between all the old cowhands.

[KarinTimour]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

Lisa-Marie:

Clark is bringing forth another important issue -- are you portraying a woman living on the "frontier" -- Illinois and further west? Or are you living in an Eastern small town, farm or city?

Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[mehrsam]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

...and I thought this thread was dead!

Thank you all for your replies.

My original post was based on the Matthew Brady photograph of Alfred Waud sketching while at Gettysburg. The reason for my question is that I am researching the lives, careers, dress and equipment of the "special artists" assigned to report the CW battles and campaigns through their sketches and paintings. While there is a fair amount of information available on the journalists - books such as "Blue & Gray in Black & White" and "The Bohemian Brigade" - I have not been able to uncover much regarding the artists, although I do have "Alfred R. Waud, Civil War Artist" on order. Publications and books on the history of modern firearms also mention very little, if at all, about 19th century civilian arms until they get to the American "Wild West" period.

Waud was the only war correspondent/artist I found mentioned as being armed at any time, and also captured, yet I suspect that civilians-citizens-closely connected to the armies would need some type of protection, if only to guard their personal effects or supplies. But I appreciate Miss Timour's and Mr. Badgett's comments on the authenticity of civilian sidearms and their proper place at an event. I have spent nearly a year researching these gentlemen so that I can create a believable impression, and if it is anachronistic, I'll leave my Navy Colt in the gun case.

Now, who wants to talk about civilian canteens / water containers?

[KarinTimour]

Re: Civilian sidearms?

Dear Mark:

I"m game to talk about water containers -- though I've not researched civilian canteens at all. I figured that in a first person situation the last thing I wanted was for there to be any question that I'd been robbing dead soldiers for equipment. So I have stayed away from any use of anything remotely military, since I figure with my luck I'd come across a soldier who wouldn't know dit about civilian canteens and arrest me on suspicion of being a spy or robbing the wounded/dead or having a relative in the service.

My primary water container is a hollow gourd with a cork for my Southern impression, when I"m portraying someone Northern, I use a clear bottle.

What's on your mind regarding water containers?

Karin Timour
Period Knitting - Socks, Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[mehrsam]

I'll take water containers for $200, please...(long post)

Hello Karin,

Thanks for your time. A brief overview: having spent one event season as a Federal soldier, and going to some "interesting" events (Gettysburg 139, Antietam 140), I decided to pursue an impression based on the war artists-there are not many of them at events, and as my former unit would attest, I don't play well with others. As I mentioned, I have been doing as much research as I can on these individuals, but when it comes to proper clothing and equipment, I have lots of questions. So I'll take advantage of your expertise, if that is agreeable with you.

Most important to me is the ability to draw and write as the artists did. I have a background in art and design, so that has been an asset in being able to sketch and/or paint quickly. I have picked up some materials and supplies from Sullivan Press, and copy books and instruction books on Spencerian penmanship, and have been laboriously working at that. Being left handed doesn't help when one is using pen and ink...

Wool sack coat (flap pockets or slash pockets?), shawl collar vest, white cotton or flannel shirt, wool trousers, brogans (these will have to do until I purchase some civilian boots), cravat, braces and one of Tim Bender's hats will satisfy most guidelines, I think. Where I am unsure is:

what would a special artist who was in close contact with the armies, who was constantly on the move, who frequently was very close to the action and who needed to travel light use for carrying water, food rations, personal effects and bedding / shelter? I would be on foot during events, so I can't have any evidence of having a mount.

Thank you again for any help and advice you can offer. I enjoy reading your posts and look forward to being able to accurately portray one of these special artists.

Kindest Regards,