Shirt construction question

[billmatt04]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone out there has come across period references, images, patterns, etc. that would suggest that a shirt sleeve and cuff could be made in two seperate pieces and then sewn together, resulting in each sleeve having two seams running its entire length. Every pattern, picture, and existing example I have seen always have one piece sleeves, which leads me to believe anything made with two would be an abberation. Would I be correct in this assumption?

Thanks a lot,

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: Shirt construction question

I have seen two period shirts that had pieced sleeves, meaning they used multiple pieces of cloth so as not to waste material, but I don't believe that ws the intention of the pattern and I believe the pattern called for one piece sleeve with an attached one piece cuff.

[CSchneider]

Re: Shirt construction question

By "running its entire length" do you mean a sleeve that includes pieced cuffs? As in a sleeve that was put together by sewing half of a cuff to half of a sleeve, then sewing that finished half to the other finished half? If so, I've never seen one. I've seen an original shirt that included a pieced sleeve and no separate cuff piece (the ends of the sleeves were simply turned back), so the seam did run to the bottom of the cuff, but never a shirt that included matching cuff and sleeve piecing. I wouldn't be surprised to see one, just haven't yet.

If you mean a shirt with pieced sleeves and typical one-piece cuffs--yes, plenty. That includes a couple with sleeves that started as a rectangular piece of cloth, had a triangular section cut out of the length which was then turned the opposite direction and sewn to the other side of the sleeve, turning a rectangular sleeve that would need to be gathered at the cuff into a tapered sleeve that required no gathering. Even seen one shirt that had that done to one sleeve, while the other sleeve was simply cut into the tapered shape to begin with. Its tough to describe in words, but this should help you follow better: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...4.245114431278. The second photo shows the individual pieces of the sleeve. Come to think of it, it doesn't look like that shirt had separate cuffs either, so the piecing would indeed have come to the bottom of the cuff.

This is probably worth asking at the Sewing Academy in the men's shirts forum. That's where the knowledge on these sorts of things is at. http://thesewingacademy.org/

-Craig Schneider

[billmatt04]

Re: Shirt construction question

Thanks to you both. I was curious about a shirt with a pieced sleeve and a pieced cuff. I looked through the several sources I have available (ie. Thoughts on Men's Shirts, Rural Pennsylvania Clothing) and didn't see any mention of either pieced sleeves or pieced cuffs. I saw a reproduction shirt with two pieced sleeves with seperate pieced cuffs and it got me to thinking. I wanted to ask people with a deeper knowledge and background on men's shirts than me for clarification.

I really appreciate it!

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: Shirt construction question

Piecing was indeed a common practice back then, and I believe highly under represented today. I know Joe Blunt, Dan Wambaugh, and a few other better-known guys do this, and its based on the tremedous amount of research they've done. To steal someone else's phrase from a while back, in that period labor was cheap and material was expensive - today its the other way around.

[Charles Kaiser]

Re: Shirt construction question

Hm, I think the old fashioned shirts on the square use one piece sleeve, and the "modern" style with fitted shoulder have a two piece sleeve.
Anyone who knows more about this ?

[rbruno]

Re: Shirt construction question

The Holliday shirt that is attributed to Henry Holliday from the 2nd MD infantry has a two piece sleeve. I have not seen the orginal shirt, but the pattern from Childs has the two piece sleeve. I am hoping I am not wrong because I am taking it on faith that CC researched the shirt before he made the pattern. Just like the other post, I have looked at original shirts that had multiple pieces making up the sleeves, but I have not seen one with multiple pieces for the cuff. Not saying it isn't out there, I just haven't come across it yet.

[dixieflyer]

Re: Shirt construction question

"I am taking it on faith that CC researched the shirt before he made the pattern."

Rob, based on my experiences and conversations with CC in the 80's, you can rest assured that he did, and then some. ;)

[Elaine Kessinger]

Re: Shirt construction question

Mr. Kaiser- Both "Square" shirts and fitted "French" shirts had sleeves cut in one piece usually... the exception being piecing to conserve fabric, as we're discussing here. Fabric conservation piecing can be seen in both Square and French shirts.

It would be some time after our period before the sleeve opening cut into the sleeve piece and cuff orientation to the back of the wrist became "usual." It was at this time that the two piece sleeve we know of from modern dress shirts began to become popular. Shirts of "our era," both square and french, should have the opening in the sleeve seam and the cuff oriented to close at the inside center of the wrist.

[Charles Kaiser]

Re: Shirt construction question

Mr. Kaiser- Both "Square" shirts and fitted "French" shirts had sleeves cut in one piece usually... the exception being piecing to conserve fabric, as we're discussing here. Fabric conservation piecing can be seen in both Square and French shirts.

It would be some time after our period before the sleeve opening cut into the sleeve piece and cuff orientation to the back of the wrist became "usual." It was at this time that the two piece sleeve we know of from modern dress shirts began to become popular. Shirts of "our era," both square and french, should have the opening in the sleeve seam and the cuff oriented to close at the inside center of the wrist.

Vielen Dank Ms. Kessinger !(Thanks), yes I misunderstand the post, but my wrong intention gives me a well answer. I 've thought, that shirt sleeves in two pieces like Sackcoat sleeves were common.
Every shirt i sewuntil now has 1 piece sleeves.. (Puh, i don't have to throw them away...)

[billmatt04]

Re: Shirt construction question

How about a pieced sleeve where the fabric has been tunred back on the inside and stitched to serve as a cuff? Has anyone seen anything like this?

[CSchneider]

Re: Shirt construction question

How about a pieced sleeve where the fabric has been tunred back on the inside and stitched to serve as a cuff? Has anyone seen anything like this?

Yes. Certainly nowhere near as common as a separate cuff, but I've seen a couple, including with pieces sleeves. The shirt recovered on the Arabia and recently conserved that I posted a link to earlier seems to be as you describe.

-Craig Schneider

[Canton Zouave]

Re: Shirt construction question

I have two under shirts in which the sleeves are merely pieces hodge podged together to make the sleeve and gussets. I also have a nice french cut shirt where the sleeves are pieces by butting the selvedge edges together and stitched. It is so finely done I first thought it was just a flaw in the sleeve fabric when i first bought the shirt. I have run across pieced sleeves and cuffs in several shirts, but they are not the norm in what I have seen. Most piecing and in some cases gusseting seem to be done where they are out of view.

(Just so you know: I have a shirt where the neck of the wearer either grew to big or the shirt grew to small so they split the collar and back of the shirt and inserted a wedge of fabric to make the collar and neck opening larger.)

[Joe Walker]

Re: Shirt construction question

I believe the Federal issue shirt was constructed this way.

Joe Walker

[MomKelly]

Re: Shirt construction question

just to add a bit more informaiton.

I have see originals where the inside of the cuff and collar were of a cheaper or different fabric to again conserve the fabric being used in the shirt.

Catherine Kelly