Check out this odd picture!

[lukegilly13]

I'm posting this here because my last thread hasn't attracted many viewers. I bet all of you, as I have, have seen this image before. But it wasn't until today that I looked at it in detail. Check out Pinkerton who is sporting his usual paletot and small cravat with a low crown bowler (often accompanied by a plaid shirt). Now the interesting part are the other three agents. Check out their hats. The guy in the front is sporting some out-of-style headgear compared to the other three men and possibly a cut-a-way frock coat. To me, Pinkerton seems to be dressed pretty appropriatly for the period...as do the other gents (with the exception of the guy in the middle who looks quite Dickens-like). All seem to be wearing dark somber colors (dare I say black?). All have fairly small cravats with the dude in the middle having a little bit louder knot. Maybe some velvet trim on a couple of them. So, why do you think the guy in the middle is dressed differently??? If nothing else, this picture is quite valuable as it shows several different styles of popular dress yet the general overall theme of dress (dark, somber, small cravats, dark hats, 4 of 5 light shirts, all white collars, etc). Some discussin for the weekend!

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

I'm not seeing anything particularly weird, other than the 1840s-leaning wide hat ribbon. I see him wearing a single-breasted sack, with ribbon trim, and a notched-collar vest. Not a terribly far-out ensemble for a middle-aged (or approaching thereabouts) man. As with many people throughout history, slight variations to the norm based on what was formerly popular, commensurate with the subject's age, are frequently encountered. The standing-collars, for example, might look out-of-place on younger men in the '60s.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

The guy in the front is sporting some out-of-style headgear compared to the other three men

I think he's in mourning. It looks to me like the same tophat style as the man on the right, except it has a wide band, perhaps for mourning similar to this one:

http://stationstart.com/2010/03/lincoln-hat/

Edit to add: another example, this one with a cockade, but still with the band:

http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?ItemId=21039

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Michael Comer]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

Could be Hank. My first thought was that he looked like he was trapped out like an undertaker.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

Good spot Hank you may very well be right! Anyone know who he is?

His Frock/Paletot/Sack looks double brested to me judging by the distance from the edge of the fabric the buttons are. I guess to me it looks like a cut-away or morning frock or possibly even a tailcoat (very hard to tell setting down). Also, to me his hat seems to have an awfully small flat brim and non bell shaped crown compared to the other two.

Hank: Was it common practice to have a "mourning suit"? In other words, could he have clothes that he had worn when in morning several years ago and with little wear he had not replaced them?

[lukegilly13]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

I see him wearing a single-breasted sack

After looking at your blown up portion, I think what I was seeing as the tail of his coat is actually the guy's leg standing behind him. Also there is no evidence of a second row of buttons on the viewer's right hand side of the coat. But aren't hte buttons on the left kinda far from the edge compared to the button holes? Maybe he done this to make a sack coat look a little more form fitting?

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

There's no second line of buttons/buttonholes evident, it's simply a wide closure. Also there's the breast pocket, which is rare on frocks (other than frock overcoats) but ubiquitous on sacks.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

Hank: Was it common practice to have a "mourning suit"?

Not so far as I know, except maybe for the upper class, but I haven't studied mourning all that much. Hopefully somebody else will know more about that.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

I'm not seeing anything particularly weird, other than the 1840s-leaning wide hat ribbon.

I'm with Hermann, why is his dress "out of style"? I guess you may be referring to the style of the hat brim differing from the other three, but go to any period engravings from Harper's, Frank Leslie's, &c. and you can always find top hats drawn with very flat brims.

The wide band around the crown could indicate that he was in mourning but that's not always the case for men in the 1860s (both in Europe and America). Many images of the day exist which show men wearing top hats with very wide bands that clearly aren't in mourning. For Lincoln, that well may have been the case. Check out this drawing of him at City Point, Va. wearing a different hat with an even wider band (just barely visible):

http://www.topogs.org/images/Charles_W_Reed_sketch-1o.gif

Here's another top hat (of silk plush, not beaver) with a wide band and a ribbon mourning Lincoln:

http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?ItemId=21039

All seem to be wearing dark somber colors (dare I say black?).

Could be black, could be blue, could be any other variation for all we know. The most obvious colors of the day would be darker, but who really knows unless the original artifact exists with provenance. Keep in mind the velvet collar probably being black itself, from which we can somewhat gauge color.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

I'm with Hermann, why is his dress "out of style"? I guess you may be referring to the style of the hat brim differing from the other three,

...Could be black, could be blue, could be any other variation for all we know. The most obvious colors of the day would be darker, but who really knows unless the original artifact exists with provenance. Keep in mind the velvet collar probably being black itself, from which we can somewhat gauge color.

Yeah I agree he's not really out of style with his clothing. After seeing the blown up version that was posted what I thought was a tail on a tail coat is actually the man's leg standing behind him.

I agree with your color analysis. There's no way to tell what color but I feel comfortable saying that what they are wearing is dark.

[crabby]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

Was it common practice to have a "mourning suit"? In other words, could he have clothes that he had worn when in morning several years ago and with little wear he had not replaced them?

It is not very likely that a man would have a "mourning suit". Mourning customs for men were much more lax than for women. Men's outward show of mourning was typically along the line of an armband or a cockade vs women's black/crape adorned clothing. HOWEVER, mourning etiquette is very complex especially for women; much depended on the relationship of the deceased to the mourner and the mourners social status.
I have also read primary source accounts where the mourner is told to "get rid of" mourning clothing just as soon as the appropriate time period has passed, as keeping the mourning clothing was thought to "invite the death of another loved one".
With that thought in mind, I believe mourning clothing was readily available via second hand clothing merchants.

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

The wide band around the crown could indicate that he was in mourning but that's not always the case for men in the 1860s (both in Europe and America). Many images of the day exist which show men wearing top hats with very wide bands that clearly aren't in mourning. For Lincoln, that well may have been the case. Check out this drawing of him at City Point, Va. wearing a different hat with an even wider band (just barely visible):

http://www.topogs.org/images/Charles..._sketch-1o.gif

Seward has a similarly crown-eating ribbon.

[Elaine Kessinger]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

There are places called "Mourning Warehouses" in period that cater to rental of attire and trappings of mourning.

http://www.londonancestor.com/iln/mourning-dress.htm

http://www.ephemera-society.org.uk/articles/funeralia.html

[David Fox]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

Looks to me like Pinkerton is making an early contact with some railroad tycoons which will stand him in good stead after the war. Those guys scream money.

[James A. Page]

Re: Check out this odd picture!

I'm no expert, but nothing in the original image seems to indicate mourning. I don't think the wide hat ribbon indicates anything other than a wide hat ribbon. To my eye, they all appear to be in standard, everyday attire.