"North-West" Gun

[hardeeflag]

I am doing research into the area of the southwest where I live and came across this article in the "Weekly Arizonan", A Tubac, AZ newspaper in 1859. It mentions various weapons available some were advertised over and over but some new ads come up. Specifically this one advertises "North-West" guns. What configuration would these have been in 1859 in the Southwest? Would these just been something like a .50 or .54 cal Leman type trade rifle? Or are these the same British make like Barret in smooth bore used by trappers in the 1830s. Most examples seen in the Muzzleloading circles are early 19th Century in flintlock. Would these have now been percussion make by 1859. Would they still be a 20 and 24 gauge smooth bore weapon. Note that after the ad it mentions wadding etc, that would be used for shotguns

Also interesting was the Availability form the merchant in Tubac, Fredrick Hullsman - Colt revolving carbines in 6 cylinder and 5 cylinder.

Anyway I was just wondering if by 1859 if these are the smooth-bore "North-West" guns or basically a full or half stock plains style trade rifle. Article is below:

[MarionRifles]

Re: "North-West" Gun

I did a quick Yahoo search and found a few examples that appear to be percussion converted flintlock muskets that were sold or traded to the Native Americans during the Fur trade era.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: "North-West" Gun

Hallo!

No, "Northwest' guns are a distinct evolutionary line of "Indian" trade guns. AKA Hudson Bay fusils.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=yfp-t-101-1&sz=all&va=northwest+trade+gun

They have an evolutionary history out of the 18th century frontier, but were typically flintlock, with nailed on butt plate, serpent or dragon lookng sideplate, and a large trigger guard (argued over as for mittened hands or hard mainsprings.) .

The most advanced ones at the time of the Civil War, were improving with screwed on buttplates and percussion locks, but for years a conservative market stayed with flinters.



Curt

[hardeeflag]

Re: "North-West" Gun

Here is the reverse of the lock of one that looks like it is percussion. Don't know of this is an after market conversion. Also the serpentine side-plate but the enlarged trigger guard. I guess what I am wondering if by the 1850s were the barrels shorter. Were they still in flintlock for the most part and still in 24 or 20 gauge caliber or were they rifled? Sort of just got a crash course on these weapons recently.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: "North-West" Gun

Hallo!

Hmmmm.

There is a roughly a three century or so year history and evolution of these guns, with over 80 US, British, and Belgian makers. And not talking about French trade guns.

So it is hard to be brief.

Barrel lengths were 48, 42, and 36 earlier on, but as the Frontier crossed the Mississippi, 42, 36, and 30 were common, with 30 inch barrels slowly gaining ground due to Plains Indian use. 28, 24, and 20 gauge were standard.

All smoothbore, allowing the versatile use of ball or shot.

However, there are Indian Trade Rifles, essentially fullstock "Lancaster" style longrifles and then more classic style half or full stock Plains Rifle imitators which is a parallel but different story.

Crash courses a ehard. IIRC, the classic "Northwest Trade Gun' is held as the 1830-1840 Barnett type variety which is what most of the repros for "Mountainman" folks are.
But, again without checking the bibles.... in their typology I believe these are Type M's or Type N's which hints at their fine points and complexities.

:)

Curt




Plus there are professional type docking say by gunsmiths or blacksmiths, all the way down to hacksaw crude type chop jobs.

Percussion versions asnd improvements such as screwed on buttplates instead of nailed on, slowly crept in but did nto seem to move as fast as in other areas. So, there were still flintlock versions being used in the Sioux Wars of the 1870's.

Iwould have to consult Hanson's reference books as to more precise datings. Percussion versions lingered on until about 1900 or so, flintlocks IIRC went into the 1870's.

[fahnenschmied]

Re: "North-West" Gun

"North West Guin" means, for sure, a light smoothbore gun. It would be my guess that the Northwest Gun of Arizona of 1859 would likely be flint. I cannot recall what I have seen on trade ledgers at the moment, but flint stayed popular with the native trade, mostly becuse you didnt need to buy percussion caps and flints were cheap and could be home-made. The later flint locks have a rounded tail, similar to the shape of a Civil War musket. I cannot recall seeing any North West gun made in Percussion till the late 1860s, and these appear to have P53 Enfield style locks and bolsters. You will see alot of them converted to percussion but I cannot say if they were made in such a fashion - I suspect most of them were converted after the fact. However, the trade rifles were commonly available in percussion. I would favor a flint NW gun for that time and place, with a rounded tail on the lockplate and other late features like a screwed on buttplate. Those guns could be American, Belgian or English manufacture - but they probably wouldn't be HBC marked, as I don't think Hudsons Bay Company had a presence there anymore. If you ever pass near Chardron, Nebraska, go check out the Museum of the Fur Trade - worth a side trip for sure.

[fahnenschmied]

Re: "North-West" Gun

Was doing a little research into some other topic and stumbled on the fact that the steamboat Arabia was carrying two cases of northwest guns. They were of Belgian manufacture (And apparently were shipped with flints in the locks). Other bits I learned from Hansens book on the trade guns is that there werent any records of North West guns being made in percussion before the early 1860s. I also think I might have been hasty in suggestions of the lock having rounded tails - they would probably still been pointed tails and goosenecked cocks, and not the double throated ones common later on...

[hardeeflag]

Re: "North-West" Gun

Thanks for that. Interesting to knwo that the Arabia was carrying these. Were these strictly for trade with Indians or were they also available to general public as a low cost smooth bore shot/fowling piece? I know further out west I have seen comments that Indian agents skimmed a portion of trade good for themselves.

I guess my question was were these available to the white middle class, lower class for purchase and use. Any images of such in the hands of a typical Anglo west of the Mississippi?

[fahnenschmied]

Re: "North-West" Gun

These were not at all strictly for sale to the natives. They could be purchased by anybody in need of a cheap gun. Having said that - in the decade before the Civil War, "anglos" from the States tended to carry rifles more often than not, but the French Canadians working the St-Louis - Santa Fe trail seemed to use the fusils almost exclusively. If you want some good references, read Wah-To-Yah and the Taos Trail - it is full of references to non-native use of the Northwest gun. And in the area the Mexican shepherds were still reliant on mostly the bow and arrow! Almost all of the old Northwest Guns I have seen in my time in New Mexico were Belgian made, except for an odd English made one or two. And if I remember right, most of them seemed to be dated in the 1850s - but we are talking about a small sample of a dozen or so, seen about twenty years off... To answer another question, there was always a choice on barrel length. I know the shorter ones were preferred for chasing buffalo on horseback - even for Anglos - being faster to load on horseback, without bothering with using the rammer or even priming the pan, letting the gun prime itself through whatever powder got through the touchhole into the pan.
So yes, these guns were available for purchase all over the Southwest before the war but only still being made in flint - in any of three barrel lengths you wanted. As far as commonality, in the Southwest, Belgians first, followed by British, followed somewhat distantly by American made guns.
I know of no photos - I have seen some sketches of buffalo runners with them but can't think of when or where..

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: "North-West" Gun

Hallo!

Not impossible, just not as probable...

IMHO, the flintlock was already in delcine among the "Whites" in the 1830's and 1840's. On the one hand, "NW guns" were made in flintlock IRC until 1876 for the Indian trade. Seeing some of teh other advantages... the Indians slowly moved on. A good snapshot might be the arms captured/surendered by the Laota and Cheyenne in 1877. Out of 160 muzzlelaoders, there were two flintlock smoothbores, teh rest being nearly all percussion rifles.

One of the last "uses" for P1853 Enfield type locks were on post CW trade guns.
But the earlier percussion NW type trade guns had civilian style percussion locks such as Deringer, Tyron, Leman, etc.
,


Curt