Civilan Frock - artifact study

[Frenchie Larry]

Here are a few pictures of a civilian frock coat coming from my ancestors.

I first thaught it was a 1880's frock, but I was surprised by construction details and pattern, close to CW-era frocks ; after showing the photos to a friend , he told me it was a late 1850 frock. This is possible, as the only 19th century ancestor who had my size was born in the 1830's ( the grandfather of my grand-grandfather, as other ancestors are too small , and this frock fits me perfectly )

Most of construction is machine-sewing, with a very small stich ( as my 1873 Singer does ), sleeves, lining attachment and other details are totally hand-sewned.

Here are 3 questions ;

- What do you think about this frock ? CW era ?

- Do you have the name of good books about the CW era civilian gear and patterns ? ( as I want to do some research myself of course ! )

- Last but not least, as this frock perfectly fits for me, could I use the pattern for a civilian, unlined linen frock ( for using in a military impression ). This garment was made in Toulouse, south-western France ; but as I plan to make a Louisianan impression, I hope this pattern can work well.


Here are the pics ;










Please receive best regards from France,

[El Dorado]

Re: Civilan Frock - artifact study

Could you please give us a close up photo of one of the buttons?

Thank you,
Chris Ownby

[Frenchie Larry]

Re: Civilan Frock - artifact study

Here are two pics of the buttons . I don't have the time today to make better photos, hope this helps.

The buttons are blued metal, cloth covered, with makings on back ; " Fini - 21 - Paris " ( Finished - 21 millimeters - Paris ) .

[El Dorado]

Re: Civilan Frock - artifact study

Thanks for adding the button photo's. I wish that more people were replying to your questions. A friend of mine and I also believe that the frock late 1850's or early 60's.

As far as books go, try "Dressed for the Photographer, Ordinary Americans & Fashion, 1840-1900" by Joan Severa, Kent State University Press. Also, R. L. Shep is reproducing copies of two patten making books. They are "The Complete Guide To Practical Cutting (1853) by Edward Minister & Son" and "The Handbook of Practical Cutting on the Centre Point System (1866) by Louis Devere".

I have never heard of an unlined frock coat, if anyone has please let us know.

Chris Ownby

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: Civilan Frock - artifact study

Unlined frock coats were generally for summer wear and were constructed of linen or cotton seersucker or something similar. The interior seams were flat-felled.

Is this frock coat of French manufacture? If so, it might be difficult to date using knowledge of North American or English clothing. I am not certain as to how fashions in France developed or French construction techniques.

[Frenchie Larry]

Re: Civilan Frock - artifact study

Yep, this frock is french manufacture, but I think that fashion and patterns of this type of garment were very similar in Europe and America ; i had the idea that this frock could be 1850-1860 when looking to american frocks ( military frocks or "corner clothier's" model ). The Singer of 1873 I have was always used in France, and sewing machines were used here in the 1860's too.

As I plan a military impression, I think i won't be able to use a copy of this garment. But I can't stand having and wearing this artifact without using it as a pattern or model for CW living history if it's period correct. This is why the idea of of a linen summer frock sounds attractive to me. But I will do it only if I can find any sources about this type of garment used by some louisianans in western armies.

Now, I just have the pleasure to wear it, after discovering it in the old family house..... and if it's really a CW era frock... wow...

I will now try to read a few books ( thanks Chris ) .. and if everything goes well, I will start making my first CW gear next year :p

[Matt Caldwell]

Re: Civilan Frock - artifact study

"But I can't stand having and wearing this artifact without using it as a pattern or model for CW living history if it's period correct"

Just my personal opinion, but I dont think that any original garments should be worn period. Once they are gone, they are just that, gone. There will never be another and they must be preserved. My wife and I have over 60 original garments in our collection, many of which would fit her, but there is no way she would, nor I would allow, the wearing of original garments.

Advise, get it patterned, reproduced, and then retire it in a acid free environment. You will be benifited in the future.

[Trish Hasenmueller]

Re: Civilan Frock - artifact study

At the Ladies and Gentlemen's Conference this spring there was an unlined linen coat that resembled a frock coat but didn't have skirts on the front, only in the back. The fronts were one piece, making it a paletot. All seams were flat felled to the outside and machine sewn, resembling the seams on today's blue jeans except finer. The back skirts had two inverted pleats and the pleat on the right side was split, I suppose to be able to reach a pocket underneath. The owner of the coat said that the white linen paletot is the least represented but most common work jacket of city laborers. He said that you see them in photos of city scenes often. I have photos of this garment but I hesitate to post them since the owner has not given me permission to do so. The paletot was part of the Aurora Collection, owned by Phillip Whiteman and Bill Christian, I think.

From your description above, I think that the white linen paletot may be what you wish to make, Mr. Larribere.

Trish Hasenmueller

[El Dorado]

Re: Civilan Frock - artifact study

From your description above, I think that the white linen paletot may be what you wish to make, Mr. Larribere.

Trish Hasenmueller[/QUOTE]

That sounds like a great idea. The discription of the paletot that was at the conference is "coat: paletot, linen, machine sewn" provenance 1860-1865.
The photo's show me that it is single-breasted.

Saundra Altman [Past Patterns] has a real nice double-breasted summer paletot pattern. I have three paletots made from Saundra's pattern and like them very much. I use them for 1850's events.

Best regards,
Chris Ownby

[Frenchie Larry]

Re: Civilan Frock - artifact study

[QUOTE=Matt Caldwell
Just my personal opinion, but I dont think that any original garments should be worn period. Once they are gone, they are just that, gone. There will never be another and they must be preserved. My wife and I have over 60 original garments in our collection, many of which would fit her, but there is no way she would, nor I would allow, the wearing of original garments.
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely ! When I said " wear it " ; this is not using it for CW events, only using it in a 21st-century context, a few days a year, to make it see the sun, and because this is a " family artifact". But most of time it is stored ... If some day I plan to use this exact type of garment for CW events, I'll reproduce it ( or try ! ) .

I will try to see if a linen paletot ( now I think I understand the difference between a frock and paletot ) could be one of the civilian garments used in my unit, and could fit with the infos we have about the clothing, and the " background" of the louisianan I plan to portray ( I really like this type of garment ).

Thanks all for your advice.