Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Crops, 1857-1864

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: Crops, 1857-1864

    Originally posted by Emmanuel Dabney View Post
    I can assure you that cherry trees have always been cherry trees. Note "acclimated to Texas soil." Since the trees came from a French nursery, they were what they were.

    There's actually some really good information online with the correct use of search engines and databases. Beeves outnumbered pigs just slightly more than 20 times in one county, so yes there were pigs, yes there were cattle; it's all about place specific and thus again I encourage the use of the census and farmers'/planters' records and the newspaper sources already transcribed by Ms. Betts as well as any others you may find that she hasn't had time to get to yet or know about.
    Em, with full respect for what you are saying and all your excellent research, I will have to stand by what I have found. I don't know why your sources are what they are in this case. I am going to save this as a classic example of not taking primary sources too much to heart without thoughtful analysis.

    We will really have to look at the cherry issue some more to arrive at an analysis, but I suspect hypothesis #1 is at work here: People (who were mainly pretty new to Texas and unfamiliar with growing conditions) might have liked to think that they could grow cherries in San Antonio, and might have snapped up all 100 of M. Mareschal's cherry starts! Or perhaps they even WERE being grown as shade trees, I don't know. People grow orange trees and bananas here and all sorts of things that they will never get fruit off of! There is some rational explanation for your source. But I would have issues with it when we start reenacting a bunch of 1860 San Antonians sitting around eating cherries (even an authentic mid-19th c. variety!) as a result of someone finding that source! Texas A & M with all its brilliance I don't think has yet been able to breed a variety of cherry that is going to produce anywhere in Texas? If they have, someone let me know what variety and where it is grown. Certainly not in South Texas. Like I said, a few NEW varieties of apples are NOW grown in the hill country and elsewhere, but still cannot produce in south Texas. Yes, I am staying on my limb until further evidence turns up.

    The pigs were, I would think, perhaps 'not a product' in the sense that they had already gone feral by that time, and that might account for skewed agricultural records. They are being produced "under the radar." This area where I live is mainly ranch land, only cattle raised as food animals. But the woods are still pretty thick with feral hogs and boars that date from that period. Much of Texas is like that, too. A century and a half of diligent hunting has not eliminated this wild pig population. Yes, they are pretty good eating. We know the staple meat item of the "quintessential Texan diet" during that period was leaning heavily toward pork, though certainly not exclusively. Of course quite a few people still hunted for meat and were eating venison, etc., also chickens and other animals, so I wouldn't want to overstate the pig thing. But cattle ranching was still in its infancy and did not really take off as a major sector of the Texas economy until after the war. Traveler's accounts and diaries seem to be pretty clear: Food is flavored with pork, cooked in lard, etc. over much of Texas. Unfortunately I haven't found a report of someone sitting down to a nice juicy beefsteak yet! Try Olmstead's _Journey Through Texas_ although he does have a way of overstating things like the ubiquitousness of pork.
    Last edited by amity; 02-03-2008, 02:31 PM.
    Terre Schill

    [URL="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SongToTheLamb/"]SongToTheLamb[/URL]
    [URL="http://www.shapenote.net/"]Sacred Harp.mus[/URL]

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Crops, 1857-1864

      Thomas Affleck produced several almanacs prior to the war. He mentions that apples are growing but "this is far enough south". He is in Brenham, which is about 1.5 hours north west of Houston. He does not mention the type of apples he is growing.

      He also experiments with cherries; the trees are growing but are not producing as yet. He stopped producing the almanac during the war so I do not know if he continued with the experiment and if the cherries were successful.

      Again relying on Vicki, her transcription of the Austin State Gazette on her website includes some mention of the different crops and their production. There are also some columns by Affleck regarding crops and gardening.

      Anyone wishing to discuss Texas specific topics are welcome at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/txcwcivilian/.
      Annette Bethke
      Austin TX
      Civil War Texas Civilian Living History
      [URL="http://www.txcwcivilian.org"]www.txcwcivilian.org[/URL]

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: apples

        Found something on the apples.

        Affleck mentions English Paradise and French Doucin.
        Annette Bethke
        Austin TX
        Civil War Texas Civilian Living History
        [URL="http://www.txcwcivilian.org"]www.txcwcivilian.org[/URL]

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Pigs

          Affleck again, almanac 1860.

          Why is it that so few planters make their own bacon and pork? There is nothing in the climate of state of things in the South to prevent all doing so...

          The common wood's-hog or land pike can, certainly, take better care of himself than any of the imporved breeds. He carries no surplus flesh, and can make good use of his legs. But, at same time, he will yield less fat meat for every bushel fed to him...
          Annette Bethke
          Austin TX
          Civil War Texas Civilian Living History
          [URL="http://www.txcwcivilian.org"]www.txcwcivilian.org[/URL]

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Crops, 1857-1864

            Ms. Schille,

            I won't be offended at you saving "this as a classic example of not taking primary sources too much to heart without thoughtful analysis." As of yet, you haven't quoted a single Texas planter, farmer, or prostitute, yet you find 30 issues with Clarksville newspaper from the 1860s, the Houston papers, the Dallas papers. You take issue with the census man who didn't run around and count every individual hog. You take issue with DeBow's Review.

            Like Hank, I don't live in Texas, I live in Virginia. But I am interested in primary sources not what anyone is doing generally after 1877 and especially not the 20th and 21st centuries.

            I leave it to you to argue with the past; analysis is fine, critique is fine; but to completely resign it as "I don't see it now so it never existed" would be useless to so many specific studies of the past. For example, we cannot know what color clothes people wore everyday so do we not portray anyone because we don't know if it was a magenta or solferino?

            Either way I have other research projects so I leave it to you to find your own sources, I've pointed you several directions and none of those people apparently have any merit to life in Texas 1840-1865.
            Sincerely,
            Emmanuel Dabney
            Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
            http://www.agsas.org

            "God hasten the day when war shall cease, when slavery shall be blotted from the face of the earth, and when, instead of destruction and desolation, peace, prosperity, liberty, and virtue shall rule the earth!"--John C. Brock, Commissary Sergeant, 43d United States Colored Troops

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Crops, 1857-1864

              Em, you already found a GREAT source. I can't top that. But I don't believe it for the reasons stated. I don't think anyone KNOWS of a variety of cherries that will produce in San Antonio. Yes, we could all be wrong. Maybe I will try to call A & M about this one and let you know what they say.

              I like Annette's quote on the pigs (which I will also save! Thanks, Annette!), because I think that is what happened. Who would grow pigs in a pen and call them "livestock" when they are growing all over the place anyway? (Well, someone surely did, but I hope my point is taken ... :D ).
              Terre Schill

              [URL="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SongToTheLamb/"]SongToTheLamb[/URL]
              [URL="http://www.shapenote.net/"]Sacred Harp.mus[/URL]

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Pigs

                Perhaps I should have included this sentence. I didn't originally as I didn't think it had any bearing but now based on Terre's interpretation...

                "Upon plantations, a few good animals, well cared for, will yield much better results than large stocks running at large."

                Hogs were left to run wild because they fed on the acrons and such in the woods; it was cheaper to raise them this way then to feed them. It appears from the quote above that they were still considered livestock. Other references, I'm sorry I can't pull up at the moment, talk of cutting the ears as markings so that they can later be found in the woods for butcher.

                Also the first quote mentions planters specifically; this could be interpreted that the planter class did not raise hogs, but perhaps it was an frequent activity of other classes such as yeoman farmers. I think the fact that he specifically mentioned "planters" and not a more general description such as "farmers" or "Texans" is telling. Or it could also mean he thought only planters read his publication :).
                Annette Bethke
                Austin TX
                Civil War Texas Civilian Living History
                [URL="http://www.txcwcivilian.org"]www.txcwcivilian.org[/URL]

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Crops, 1857-1864

                  Thanks, Annette. I think you are right.
                  Terre Schill

                  [URL="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SongToTheLamb/"]SongToTheLamb[/URL]
                  [URL="http://www.shapenote.net/"]Sacred Harp.mus[/URL]

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Pigs

                    Mod Bonnet on, briefly:

                    Most posters are backing up their ideas and opinions with primary source materials carefully cited.

                    As a moderator, I would appreciate it if we can try very hard to keep the opinions formed around what *is* showing up in source materials, rather than taking a position of "I don't see it now, and until I do, I'm not going to believe it."

                    Having an open mind to new information is a very helpful stance when looking at the past. It's fine to retain a healthy skepticism (as that's what keeps us from over-emphasizing *every* source, or extrapolating beyond a source's actual usefulness), but let's not go the route of automatic incredulity.

                    Terre, if you could please back up your statements regarding pigs, etc, with some referenced historic data from your area, that would be very helpful, and add a great deal to the discussion.
                    Regards,
                    Elizabeth Clark

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Crops, 1857-1864

                      Originally posted by ElizabethClark View Post
                      Mod Bonnet on, briefly:

                      Most posters are backing up their ideas and opinions with primary source materials carefully cited.

                      As a moderator, I would appreciate it if we can try very hard to keep the opinions formed around what *is* showing up in source materials, rather than taking a position of "I don't see it now, and until I do, I'm not going to believe it."

                      Having an open mind to new information is a very helpful stance when looking at the past. It's fine to retain a healthy skepticism (as that's what keeps us from over-emphasizing *every* source, or extrapolating beyond a source's actual usefulness), but let's not go the route of automatic incredulity.

                      Terre, if you could please back up your statements regarding pigs, etc, with some referenced historic data from your area, that would be very helpful, and add a great deal to the discussion.
                      I think Annette has just provided it. that is what I was pointing to. and i am not basing my questioning, for that is all it is after all, on present day reality, but a slight amount of background knowledge! I will investigate this further if I get a chance to call A & M from work and see if there were any varieties of cherries in 19th c. Texas that would have produced in San Antonio (or anywhere else in Texas for that matter).

                      Other than that on the pig issue check Olmstead (op cit by me) and many other sources. Most sources. This shows so clearly the limits of national sources, De Bows, census, etc.
                      Terre Schill

                      [URL="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SongToTheLamb/"]SongToTheLamb[/URL]
                      [URL="http://www.shapenote.net/"]Sacred Harp.mus[/URL]

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Pigs

                        Originally posted by Annette Bethke View Post
                        Other references, I'm sorry I can't pull up at the moment, talk of cutting the ears as markings so that they can later be found in the woods for butcher.
                        There were probably laws before and after this, but here's one from Laws Passed by the Second Legislature of the State of Texas, 1848

                        An Act regulating Marks and Brands.

                        SECTION 1. Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of
                        Texas, That every person in this State who has cattle, hogs,
                        sheep or goats, shall have an ear mark and brand differing
                        from the ear mark and brand of his neighbors, which ear mark
                        and brand shall be recorded by the Clerk of the County Court,
                        where such cattle, hogs, sheep or goats shall be, and no person
                        shall use more than one brand, but may record his brand, in as
                        many counties as he may think necessary.

                        SEC. 2. Cattle shall be marked with the ear mark, or branded
                        with the brand of the owner, on or before they are twelve
                        months old; hogs, sheep and goats shall be marked with the
                        ear mark of the owner on or before they are six months old.


                        SEC. 3. If any dispute shall arise about any ear mark or
                        brand, it shall be decided by reference to the book of marks
                        and brands kept by the Clerk of the County Court; and the ear
                        mark and brand of the oldest date shall have the preference.

                        SEC. 4. It shall be the duty of the Clerks of the County
                        Courts in the respective counties of this State, to keep a well
                        bound book, in which they shall record the marks or brands
                        of each individual who may apply to them for that purpose,
                        noting in every instance the date on which the brand or mark
                        is recorded, which record shall be subject to the examination
                        of every citizen of the county at all reasonable office hours free
                        of charge for such examination.

                        SEC. 5. No brands except such as are recorded by the officers
                        named in this act shall be recognized in law as any evidence
                        of ownership, of the cattle, horses, or mules upon which,
                        the same may be used.

                        SEC. 6. Minors owning cattle or hogs, separate from that
                        of the father or guardian, may have a brand and mark which
                        shall be recorded, the father or guardian shall be responsible
                        for the proper use of such mark and brand of any such minor.

                        SEC. 7. Persons who have heretofore recorded their mark
                        or brand, shall not be required to have the same recorded,
                        again under this act in the same county.
                        Approved, March 20, 1848.
                        Ohio had essentially the same procedure, except it was the township clerk who kept the record of marks.

                        Here's an example of a North Carolina law published 1819 that's also very similar http://books.google.com/books?id=paY...AJ&pg=RA4-PA90 and I wouldn't be surprised if it showed up in other states as well.

                        The keeping of semi-feral but individually-owned razorback hogs on mast and roots is a practice that shows up in many southern states in the 1860s, and was a pioneer-era thing elsewhere, so it's no surprise that laws were similar from state to state. In Ohio, early in the 1800s, there were hogs considered truly wild and anyone's property like wild game, and hogs turned out but ear marked, living like the wild ones but actually belonging to individuals. As more cultivated fodder became available to raise hogs, improved varieties became popular, and the razorbacks faded away here. I believe the same thing eventually happened in the south, but a few generations later, mostly postwar. It seems to be a typical hog-raising pattern.

                        But it might be worth looking for a distinction between true wild hogs not claimed by anyone until they were shot by a hunter, and individually owned hogs raised by letting them run wild, such as Jones describes in History of Agriculture in Ohio: "A man who killed the [ear marked] hogs of another was subject to punishment by law and scarcely less so by public opprobrium. This rule did not apply, as it happened, to the unmarked feral hogs of Crawford County [Ohio], which were considered in the public domain."

                        Hank Trent
                        hanktrent@voyager.net
                        Hank Trent

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Crops, 1857-1864

                          Hank, here is my impression on this (and then I have got to go and continue next weekend. during the week I have to be very brief with this. I have two full-time jobs.). I have the impression that Texas more than most places was relatively lax about marking livestock. The reasons are multiple. First, precedent. The term "Maverick" relates to Samuel Maverick who was not a rancher, but happened to own a herd of cattle which were kept near the coast and were unbranded (this is in the 1830s-40s but became fairly common). Anything without a mark was said to be "Maverick's". Secondly, most people in this overwhelmingly agricultural state lived fairly spread apart, and the roaming cattle (and hogs) would not necessarily create a problem (of course there was no barbed wire or other range fencing. The range was still mainly open). Relatively little of the land was actually under cultivation then. Thirdly, there were already a substantial population of wild hogs back as far as 1830s (? I guess is the earliest I had read about them), certainly pre-civil war. No one necessarily branded them anymore than they would the deer or possums?

                          Now this is not to say that no one kept domesticated hogs. I am just saying that I believe pork was a major meat source, no matter what Debows or the census takers say, and that I believe the reason this is not reflected in statistics is because the feral hogs were a major supply of pork. it is just a hunch, my interpretation of the sources. Subject to review, elaboration, and being disproven.
                          Last edited by amity; 02-03-2008, 06:21 PM.
                          Terre Schill

                          [URL="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SongToTheLamb/"]SongToTheLamb[/URL]
                          [URL="http://www.shapenote.net/"]Sacred Harp.mus[/URL]

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Crops, 1857-1864

                            Originally posted by amity View Post
                            Secondly, most people in this overwhelmingly agricultural state lived fairly spread apart, and the roaming cattle (and hogs) would not necessarily create a problem (of course there was no barbed wire or other range fencing. The range was still mainly open). Relatively little of the land was actually under cultivation then. Thirdly, there were already a substantial population of wild hogs back as far as 1830s (? I guess is the earliest I had read about them), certainly pre-civil war. No one necessarily branded them anymore than they would the deer or possums?
                            Those same conditions held true for most areas at the time hogs were raised in this manner, including the fact that fence laws were written so animals ran free and you were obligated to fence animals out of your crops if you wanted.

                            I'm not saying that everyone was scrupulous about branding their animals, especially where settlement was sparse and there could be no confusion. My emphasis is more on the concept that there could be a sense of ownership in your hogs running wild vs. true wildness, and the laws merely reflected it. That's what I'm seeing in the quote Annette provided: "Upon plantations, a few good animals, well cared for, will yield much better results than large stocks running at large."

                            I think the author is urging the typical transition, from letting your unimproved hogs subsist semi-wild on mast and roots, to raising an improved variety on better feed, and isn't addressing the true feral hogs descended from previous generations that are part of the countryside like deer or possums.

                            Here's a halfway transition:
                            Last spring, I staid all night with a small farmer, in the southern part of Limestone county, who owned only about fifty acres. At night, he called up about forty large hogs, and fed them a few ears of corn. They were the best forty hogs I ever saw at any one place in Texas... By having his hogs at home at night, they are not liable to be stolen, and, kept in a growing condition, it takes less corn to fatten them in the fall. (First Annual Report of the Geological and Agricultural Survey of Texas, 1874)
                            The alternative would be to not have "his hogs" home at night until it came time to fatten them, yet even running loose they'd still be considered "his hogs," whether actually marked or not

                            The author also says, though this is 1874:

                            A marked improvement has been made in hogs during the past few years. Burkshires, Poland, Chinas [the same breeds that superseded the razorbacks in Ohio too] and other breeds are now common in a large portion of the State. The people have learned that the keeping of these breeds give the largest profits. Not near enough hogs are kept in the State for the wants of the people, large quantities of hams, bacon and lard being annually imported.
                            If it was also true earlier, that may also help explain how Texans could eat more hog than they raised.

                            Hank Trent
                            hanktrent@voyager.net
                            Hank Trent

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Crops, 1857-1864

                              Oh, okay. That sounds plausible and fits.

                              One thing got glanced over that I wish we had spent time discussing is Em's source about blacks having civil rights in Texas (or similar wording). I was a bit surprised to find quite a few free blacks in my area, including a few free black women, making it on their own, owning property in some instances, etc. Does anyone have more info on this? It is not something that I have read much about yet. Of course several heroes of the Texas Rev were black, and early Texas attracted quite a few free people of color even back in the '30s.

                              Don't get me wrong, slavery was just awful here and I don't think any better than elsewhere, maybe worse.

                              Edit: I just found this interesting little blurb on apples. Maybe someone can find more. I can't right now:
                              There are many different varieties of American heritage apples, including the Baldwin apple, the Sierra beauty, the Westfield...
                              Last edited by amity; 02-03-2008, 10:12 PM.
                              Terre Schill

                              [URL="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SongToTheLamb/"]SongToTheLamb[/URL]
                              [URL="http://www.shapenote.net/"]Sacred Harp.mus[/URL]

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: free blacks

                                The 1860 census only shows 1 free black in Caldwell county. What source are you using?

                                Perhaps this should actually go on another thread?
                                Annette Bethke
                                Austin TX
                                Civil War Texas Civilian Living History
                                [URL="http://www.txcwcivilian.org"]www.txcwcivilian.org[/URL]

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X