Dyeing to know what I did wrong (or What's the madder?)

[Michael McComas]

Hello good citizens,

I have a question about dyeing with madder. I have a piece of FHW undyed kersey that I'm trying to dye to a brick red color. For my first attempt with this color and material, I used some Earth Hues madder extract, figuring if that was a success, I'd the spring for a peck of the real thing and do it up right. Well, the color took, but it came out of the dye pot a beautiful burnt orange color, not brick red.

My dye process was thus:

1) Mordant the material in a strong alum solution (3 TBS/lb of fabric), at 200 F for about 4 hours.
2) Extract and rinse thoroughly.
3) Soak in madder (4% weight of goods) over medium heat at 175-180 F for about 6 hours. Let cool in the pot.
4) Wash in Orvus.
5) Lay out my beautiful orange fabric to dry.

So my questions are:

a) Should I have thrown the alum into the dye pot with the madder?
b) Is my dye bath too weak?
c) Our water here is very acidic, and has some iron and copper in it. This does wonders for my walnut dye, but could it be adversely affecting the madder dye?
d) My alternative water source is to use the dehumidifier--essentially free distilled water, and pH neutral. Any thoughts on that as a dye bath?
e) Can I expect real madder (either with acidic/ferrous tap water or with distilled water) to behave any better?

Thank you for the benefit of your insight. I shall look forward to your replies.

Best regards,

Michael McComas
Orange to the Elbows Mess

[WBailey]

Re: Dyeing to know what I did wrong (or What's the madder?)

Try adding some "turkey red" oil. This oil can be found at a soap making supply store.

Wes

[Spinster]

Re: Dyeing to know what I did wrong (or What's the madder?)

Could be multiple things---natural dyes are ALWAYS an adventure.

Earth Hues madder extract does seem to tend toward the orange. Not having used the stuff but once, I can't tell you about the proper proportion of this concentrated dye extract--recheck your directions. Using real madder in its natural form, I have used 100% weight of fiber.

Was your fabric properly scoured before it went into the mordant pot? A good simmer won't do here--its got to have some soap in that hot water. Don't agitate it though, and don't pour water directly on the fabric.

Alum is a sometimes vague term--did you use Aluminum Acetate--if so, then your proportions are wrong, and that alum works better on cotton. If you did use the Potassium Alum, then your proportions are reasonable.

Water content always affects the process, though in your case the iron and copper should have helped--iron "saddens" or darkens--and should have taken the orange towards maroon. Distilled water is often a good thing when one wishes to control color precisely.

I'd take that heat down about 10 degrees--but that's just me--I've boiled the red out of madder and been left with an unremarkable brown way too many times. I don't think that's what happened here though.

Real madder will need to be pounded and soaked for several days beforehand. Throw some creme of tartar into the mordant pot to aid the solution in going towards red.

While I'm normally content with whatever color God gives me out of a pot, and find some use for it, you may have a more specific project in mind. To rescue your current piece, consider post mordanting with copper sulfate. Start out with a weak solution, and gradually increase the proportions until you get the depth of color you want.

Bleach will take care of those orange elbows. When not working in a period setting, I'm also fond of "Blue-etts", a heavy glove that enable one to place hands in boiling water for 20-30 seconds, and handle steaming fabric in the those places where the directions say "lift and air repeatedly"

Been doing indigo here lately--I've got "dead people hands". :wink_smil

[Michael McComas]

Re: Dyeing to know what I did wrong (or What's the madder?)

Thank you for the suggestions. That Turkey Red oil sounds like it might help the dye penetrate. I'll get a few ounces and experiment a bit.

The fabric was washed in olive oil and amonia in warm water before I mordanted it. I extracted the water, so it was just damp when it went into the mordant pot. The mordant was the alum I usually use for wool, which I believe is Potassium Aluminum Sulfate. I've found that a stronger alum bath works well with our water. I think using distilled water will probably help, so I will do that next time.

It sounds like I may have had the pot too hot, actually. If it's 175 F on the top or side, it's probably much hotter on the bottom. I'll crank the heat down a notch next time.

Do you know where I might find Copper Sulfate (and Iron Sulfate, for that matter)? The only place I can find that has them is a chemical supply house that only ships 5 lb at a time.

Thanks again for the suggestions. I'll have test them when I "try, try again".

[Spinster]

Re: Dyeing to know what I did wrong (or What's the madder?)

Do you know where I might find Copper Sulfate (and Iron Sulfate, for that matter)? ".

http://www.earthguild.com

All kinds of mordents in all sorts of quantities.

[WBailey]

Re: Dyeing to know what I did wrong (or What's the madder?)

The turkey red oil is a mordent. Try using less other things and just madder and turkey red oil. There is a good book on madder dyeing, try searching the web for turkey red+madder. I do not remember the name of the book but I read part of a loaned copy. If I can find out the name of the book I will post it.

The book discussed a large industry of dyeing reds with both madder and turkey red until the later 1850’s when modern dyes were invented.

Try this link.

http://www.halimal.com/WWW/dyes/madder.php3#secDetails

Wes