And What of Islam?

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

So there I was, reading along in Moby Dick (1841) and I hit a reference to a fast (the "no eating" one rather than the "quick" one) as a RAMADAN.
So being proper (or maybe not so proper) mid-nineteenth century types, what DO we know of that third Abrahamic religion, Islam?
I've read about Moslems coming to our neck of the woods (both free folks and slaves) since before the American Revolution. (For our Reb friends. that's the First One, 1775 and all that.)

So what do we know and when did we know it?

Admittedly, this is not as racy as when we touched upon the Oneidians, but still interesting, nonetheless. Is this the sort of thing to be discussed over brandy and cigars (or spice tea and hookas)?

Glen E. Hargis

[Joanna Jones]

Re: And What of Islam?

Here's a few web sites I found. They address mostly the history, not the "what did the average person know" aspect, but it is a start. The third site has a reference to a book on Islam in the antebellum period.

http://www.islamamerica.org/history.cfm

http://sunnah.org/history/islamamr.htm

http://www.colostate.edu/orgs/MSA/find_more/iia.html

Joanna Jones

[Silvana Siddali]

Re: And What of Islam?

One of the most straightforward sources for what people knew about the world outside the U. S. is early to mid-19th century popular geography and history schoolbooks. By 1840, both history and geography had become a part of the curriculum (at least, in the Academies, if not always in smaller district grammar schools.) Many of the world history and geography texts I've examined contain discussions of "Mohametanism" that strike me as surprisingly evenhanded.

For a great place to look at these sources, and even download information from a few scanned texts, you might check out the Nietz Schoolbook collection at the University of Pittsburgh. http://www.library.pitt.edu/articles...nfo/nietz.html

Remember that country schools would use schoolbooks for years and years after they were printed. Moreover, school teachers rarely assigned specific texts -- the children just brought in whatever was on hand at home. So my best guess would be, if you're an adult in 1860, you might have used geography and history texts from the 1840s. Prior to the early 1840s you would probably not have studied much history, and your geography knowledge might be rudimentary -- those subjects weren't included in the average district school curriculum much before the early 1840s.

Hope this helps!

Silvana Siddali

[HighPrvt]

Re: And What of Islam?

Sir, modern politics (post 1865 or so) are not a topic of conversation for this forum. Please refrain from further modern chat.

Elizabeth Clark, Moderating Team

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

Re: And What of Islam?

Just my opinion, but I don't think it would have made conversation around the average table, or camp.

Speaking of opinions ...
I fear that that then, as now, American society possessed deep, rich veins of ignorance in many areas of thought.
These intellectual voids were, by no means, universal. So, the notion that the whole of the country was made up of bumpkins and ignoramuses is a mis-read of how things were.
But, as confused as we are on how things are in the here and now, is it any wonder we miss the mark on the there and then?

[HighPrvt]

Re: And What of Islam?

So your of the opinion that if someone isn't versed in heathen religions then they are ignorant country bumpkins?
OK........
:)

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: And What of Islam?

I cannot speak for those not on this forum but others have studied the travels of both men and women in Egypt during the antebellum years. Though much of the focus as I recall was on dress, Carolann, are you out there? Does anyone else remember from Karin Boheleke's talk about women traveling in Egypt what their reactions were?

I find that Americans were rather interested in things non-Christian and it didn't buy them any one way tickets to any place warmer than the Middle East.

Though when I have found reference to Islam it is usually some elderly slave who was born in Africa, to African parents, or just those who did not become assimilated into the Christian world. However, it mostly amount to only a few enslaved persons and never have I found it to be the case with enslaved domestic servants.

[lazarus]

Re: And What of Islam?

So your of the opinion that if someone isn't versed in heathen religions then they are ignorant country bumpkins?
OK........
:)

Let's be careful on what we call "heathen" religions versus others. I'm sure many of us can't forget the sides that have called down some sort of god(s)/God to make sure they won some sort of war or contest when shooting the rifle or swinging the sword. Heathen is a term that could cover about any religion given the right angle. But, back to Isalm, based on my studies of immigration, not big in the U.S. until the twentieth century, and not really big until the 1940s with a population of at least 50,000 self-identified practicing Muslims. Of course, there could have been more but not everyone reveals their religious beliefs because, let's face it, it stigmatizes or divides.

Cheers!

[Dale Beasley]

Re: And What of Islam?

I think it is best we leave this alone. Becasue, so many people do not read the "fine print" in verses of the Qur'an and even the Bible. For example, some yahoo use to quote from the Qur'an on his signature block on this site. I looked up what he quoted and it simply was not there. When I brought this to his attention, it ticked him off, and he sent me a PM telling me I was a liberal.

Dale, leave the politics out of the discussion.

"Those who do not believe and die while they are unbelivers, on them falls the curse of Allah, of angles and of men.--The Qur'an

[ohpkirk]

Re: And What of Islam?

So your of the opinion that if someone isn't versed in heathen religions then they are ignorant country bumpkins?
OK........
:)

How is Islam a heathen religion? They pray to the same God as Christians and Jews, just not in the same prophet.

I have come across references to Moslems in period texts and I believe in some newspapers as "Mohammedians" and even some Anglo's with the first name of Mohamet. In one newspaper article regarding the landing of camels on the Texas coast in late 1854 and their first stop at Indianola, the caretaker of the camels was Hadji Ali, which was butchered by Texans into "Hi Jolly" the 'friendly Mohammedian'.

[BishopLynch]

Re: And What of Islam?

How is Islam a heathen religion? They pray to the same God as Christians and Jews, just not in the same prophet.

Please confine any religious discussions to polite debate regarding period thoughts and quotes on the matter. Elizabeth Clark, Moderator

[Hank Trent]

Re: And What of Islam?

One way that people in the 19th century might have heard about Islam, even if they'd never met a believer of that religion, would be through the Transcendentalists.

The Transcendentalists had a fascination with eastern, exotic religions in general. The final paragraph here sums it up: http://www.improvis.org/walden/Influences.htm

For example, here's Emerson starting out an 1841 essay on love with a quote from the Koran: http://www.emersoncentral.com/love.htm

As some others noted in this thread, there was also a fascination with travel narratives in general, travel to the "east" in particular, and therefore an interest in exotic Muslim cultures, even though again most people may never have met a follower of the religion. Here's a review of a translation of the Koran, published in 1850
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...D1642-0026-150 The review begins:

A new and valuable edition of the Koran is peculiarly acceptable at this time, when the attention of the scientific and religious world has been attracted to the East, particularly those countries which are possessed by the followers of the prophet... When we reflect upon the rapid growth of the religion of which this work is the text-book, and the devout adherence of its believers to their faith, putting altogether to shame the faith of Christians in that particular, and of the necessity which exists of supplanting that faith the Gospel, we understand how necessary it is to become acquainted with the Koran...

And apparently some people actually read it, because the January 1855 Harper's Editor's Drawer included this comment:

"A very bad pun occurs in a verse of Sale's translation of the Koran, where the Lord says, speaking of Solomon (who was King of the Genii, and a great hero among the Mohamedans): "And we also subjected unto his command divers of the devils who might dive to get pearls for him" What a dull ear Father Sale must have had!

There are enough references to the Koran, Mohammed, "mussulmen," and such, in popular literature, that it seems the average person would have had a basic understanding that the Arabs or the Turks or some of those vague people "over there" believed in an exotic religion that followed Mohammed.

For example, from Virginia Illustrated, 1857, at http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/t...image;seq=0028

"Brother Porte used to be very kind and obliging, but of late he has become such a bear in his manners, and such a sloven, it's shameful! You might really suppose, from his talk, that he thought women had no souls; and as to listening to any thing they say--whew! he's entirely too high for that. The fact is, he got to reading the Koran some few years ago, and I don't think he has been quite right since."

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[ElizabethClark]

Re: And What of Islam?

Dear Everyone,

Several members of the forum are responding to this most interesting topic as I anticipate all members should want to respond: with period accounts and references to expand on the extent of information a person from the era might have had available.

This is not the forum for debate on modern religious ideas, and such modern content will be removed, as will speculative "Well, I think I'd believe this..." statements.

The thread is far too interesting to remove from the open forum--instead, I'll be using moderator tools to keep discussion on track. Habitual off-trackers will be rewarded with restricted posting priveleges.

[ElizabethClark]

Re: And What of Islam?

Mr Beasley, I'm assuming that's Allah and the Angels? :)

[Joanna Jones]

Re: And What of Islam?

From Harper's New Monthly, Feb. 1858, a description of a trip to Constantinople, including thoughts on "Islamism" and "Ramazan"(Ramadan)

http://tinyurl.com/y5goyh

Same journal, Dec. 1856 "The Fall of Islam"

http://tinyurl.com/y6mxr8

Actually, doing a MOA search of "harpers" and Islam* OR Moham* from 1850 to 1865 gave 736 citations. And that is just one journal.

Joanna Jones