Overalls

[tmdreb]

Re: Overalls

I'd agree it's more of a welt than a flap. Also, the suspenders holding up the bib are of a different fabric than the rest of the garment. That doesn't seem to show up in CW era images.

[Busterbuttonboy]

Re: Overalls

Although this thread has been inactive for awhile i thought i would post my findings here. Aside from the discussion itself and our conception about Bibs, i recently found this pattern i thought i would post. Pockets seem to be low enough for my tastes.

http://www.harriets.com/victmens.htm

Drew Gruber

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Overalls

The pattern appears though to have the same one-piece bib construction as the Past Pattern's pattern (at least from the illustration), which is decidedly late 19th century. I would still recommend purchasing the Past Pattern's pattern and asking Saundra Altman wear and how to make all the various modifications to make these appropriate for a mid-19th century impression.

Some of the other patterns on this site give me the hibbie gibbies, a frock/morning coat pattern fashionable for a 30 year timespan! Wow, I wish that was born out with the originals in my collection.:wink_smil At least Saundra Altman gives it to you straight and backs her patterns up with solid research. Just my opinion.

[Drygoods]

Re: Overalls

Ian, can you simply explain what Saundra told you over the telephone? I think it would be annoying to her if we all phoned asking the same questions. I read the other posts, but would still appreciate more detail in the description of how to defarb the pattern. Maybe others need the help too.:p

[Cassandra]

Re: Overalls

Would the bib's be made out of a heavy cotton, or wool?

[jgr1974]

Re: Overalls

I am intersted in the Harriet pattern as well. I purchased the Past pattern's one and have wore tham as well. They are comfortable. I am curious how the overall's differ??? I think the overalls beeing work clothes should be made of a heavy tight weave fabric. I do not have the ad in front of me, but overalls over shirts and sack coats were made from tight weave denim. These were referred as Hickory cloth, this is where the word "hick" came from.

The Mad MIck!

[tmdreb]

Re: Overalls

Since they are worn over the trousers and not instead of them, you may not want to use such a heavy material. A somewhat lightweight drill would probably work well.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Overalls

Ian, can you simply explain what Saundra told you over the telephone? I think it would be annoying to her if we all phoned asking the same questions. I read the other posts, but would still appreciate more detail in the description of how to defarb the pattern. Maybe others need the help too.:p

The following tips were posted earlier in this thread, in case you don't want to bother Saundra:

Originally Posted by Citizen_Soldier
Greetings,
I would be fairly uncomfortable wearing the Past Patterns Overalls for an Antebellum or Civil War impression. The style of overalls worn during the war years differ signifigantly from this pattern, which is no secret as even Ms. Altman dates the pattern to 1870-1901.

The earlier style judging by photgraphs, drawings, genre paintings, and the like show overalls with a seam running across the waist and a pieced together bib...anywhere from 2 pieces on up. A few examples even seem to have a button fly incorporated into the construction of the piece. There also seems to be gussets in the back, kind of like US military trousers.

Another common mistake I've seen in the reproduction of overalls based on this pattern by a few "authentic" makers is the incorporation of pockets on the bib. While pockets were often seen down at the waist or hip, overalls with pockets on the actual bib isn't seen in images or catalogs until after the turn of the century in most cases.

Overalls were certainly around prior to the war and during the conflict, there's no doubt about it. However, I would refrain from using the 1970-1901pattern overalls in a CW era impression. I guess it's kind of like military sack coats, they were certainly worn during the war years, but would it be acceptable to wear a 5 button post war example for a 1862 impression? The answer would be no, as there was pattern differences.

Originally Posted by Ian McWherter
In addition to the pieced bib, and sometimes fly, early overalls also have a outseam running down the leg, Mrs. Altman's pattern has a one-piece leg. Her pattern can be easily modified to have this pieced bib and outseam, in fact, if you call her she'll explain exactly how to do this. I don't know why most vendors can't spend the extra 30 min. of work to modify their patterns to incorporate these elements instead of selling an 1870-1901 pattern and making excuses. The draft for Ms. Altman's pattern is actually from the 1890s but she stretches the fashionable circa to 1870, but that's as far as it will go unless you modify the pattern. Like Mr. Orwig said, she is perfectly plain about this, no mystery, unless you blindly believe everything "honest" suttlers sell you.

I have viewed several un-published dags. recently from private collections dating to before the Civil War showing overalls in detail that further corroborate these details.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Overalls

Here is an image I saved from a recent Ebay auction, showing two tinsmith's at work. You can't see any details of the construction, but you can see the appropriate fit of the overalls:

[SparksBird]

Re: Overalls

I have read this thread for some time and do have some questions. Based on the nature of the postings, the overall consensus was reached that Mrs. Altman's pattern needed to be reworked in order for her overalls to be appropriate for the 1860s. However, when going back and really reading through the postings, I am yet to see any conclusive evidence of her current pattern not being period correct. I know that the time period that she advertises is later than the 1860s and I am not questioning that. However, I haven't really seen any hard evidence, or an original garment to study, that would prove these theories. So far, one photo of the miner and several drawings/paintings have been provided but that is it. I am curious as to what concrete sources, besides personal speculation, have really merited any repro bibs out there to be non-authentic. So far, the one painting could possibly have a seem running along the bib. Therefore, all repro bibs must follow suit?? I guess what I am saying is please provide me with the documentation to help answer this question.


Rick Musselman
President, MOMCC
F. & A.M. Palestine #158

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Overalls

I guess what I am saying is please provide me with the documentation to help answer this question.

Rick Musselman
President, MOMCC
F. & A.M. Palestine #158

This is where I differ (respectfully). When I have a question regarding the authenticity of an item I don't expect others to provide me with all the evidence. I go out, hit the books, examine original garments, look at original photographs in private collections that haven't been published, etc., etc., etc., myself. I would love to share the images of overalls I've seen, but I do not have the owners permission.

This thread should give you a good jumping off point for your own research project, but to expect the other contributers in this thread to provide the burden of evidence from the sweat of their own brow is silly. This is not what forums are for.

Why not talk to the person who created this pattern in the first place? When I ordered the Past Patterns overall pattern from Saundra the first thing she asked me was, "what impression are you going to be using this for?" I told her an Antebellum impression, after which she informed me that the pattern would need to be altered and she offered to send me directions on how to do it. So the creator of the pattern will tell you it's not correct unless altered for earlier impressions, and she did her homework. I would like to see someone post information proving that one-piece bib overalls, just like Saundra Altman's 1890s overalls, are correct for a Civil War or Antebellum impression, my research indicates otherwise.

But as I've said you should research this question yourself, you might find exactly what you're looking for or something completely different. Then when you're done you can share your findings with us here, if you should feel like it.:)

[SparksBird]

Re: Overalls

Ian,
I don't think you understood the purpose of my posting. I have been on these forums long enough to know the difference between research and "my opinion" or "it seems" comments. I am not trying to pick, but we can't simply make our own assumptions and lead others to believe that they are solid research. I am simply saying that there is a lot of speculation in this thread and I was not seeing the facts to back it up. However, Saundra sent me the following email that reassures me of the historical documentation. I have known Saundra Altman for some time and she is one of the best clothing researchers out there today. She sent me the following email and asked that it be posted on here:

Hello Good People,

Bill Christen and Rick Musselman have e-mailed a summary of the discussions on the Authentic Campaigner regarding apron-front overalls worn during the 1860s, in particular what the Union Army would have issued. They have encouraged me to respond.

In general early apron-front overalls were trousers to which an apron-front was attached and straps attached to the apron-front. But, please keep in mind, that there are daguerreotypes and paintings showing no waistband. Some had flys and some did not.

It makes me happy that you are showing an interest in overalls and I will make you happy by telling you that in late summer, this year, I will market an earlier pair of apron-front overalls pattern that are drafted from originals in a private collection. The owners's initials are inked in a corner. They might be as early as 1850. The same collection yielded an overalls pattern dated, if I remember correctly, to 1855 with the person they fit written in pencil on the brown paper. The collection also contained and two pairs of denim overalls being reworked.

The early pair are probably the only pair in existence and I am extremely lucky to have found them and be given permission to make a pattern from them.

I make more women's patterns than men's because ball gowns pay the bills. If more men sewed their own clothing we could sell more men's patterns and I would be encouraged to make more. The earlier overalls would be a good start to sew by hand because they are easy to make and the stitches are large, I propose: because they are work garments and would wear out quickly.

To the Guys: If you can build anything using a ruler and right angles you already understand how important a straight and true line is, so you are ready to sew by hand or machine. Straight and even stitches are a key to building a garment that will hang correctly when worn and endure wearing and washing.

My best,
S.
dba PP



Rick Musselman

[Matthew.Rector]

Re: Overalls

Since several patterns of civilian overalls are discussed in thread I thought I'd add the following. There is currently (08-17-2014) an auction on ebay for an 1865 dated photograph that depicts some workers in New York wearing several examples of civilian style overalls. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=351142720627

[PogueMahone]

Re: Overalls

Matthew,

I think they are all wearing aprons, except maybe the fellow in the center of the middle row. You can see skirts on all but one of the guys in the front sitting row. Based on how high they are on the chest and the narrow straps, I'd say they are all aprons. The one exception in the middle is likely wearing overalls based on how low they ride at the chest and the width of the straps.

Just my opinion, though,

[Matthew.Rector]

Re: Overalls

Joe, I concur. I think at first glance I thought the worker seated second from the right was wearing them with something resting on his lap...but I can see now how that looks more like an apron. I believe there is enough detail to support an overall wearer for the second worker seated from the left. Notably the trousers displayed under the turned-up cuff of the supposed overalls.