Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

[modelf85]

Has anyone had any experience with this? Is it accurate? I cant tell from the drawing, but would I have to alter it at all?


Thanks,

[S.D.Foster]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

I did not realize Past Patterns had come out with a men's frock coat pattern? All I know of is a double breasted paletot coat pattern.

Do you have a link or a picture you can share? I'd like to take a look.

Sean Foster

[ThehosGendar]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

I think you might mean the "Homespun" pattern, right?

You really need to tweak. I think it's going for a more '50s approach, with rather straight sleeves, but there isn't much shape to the body. You need to work out some nicer, more natural curves to the back line, and if you want '60s, you have to give the sleeves more of a 'swoosh' at the elbows.

If you stare at enough pictures, find some originals or pictures of originals, you'll be able to do something with it.

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

Too, *every* pattern will need some tweaking for the individual person. Uniforms may have been issued in uniform sizes, but citizen clothing wasn't. :) Expect to need to alter any pattern to suit your unique body shape, and then adapt the garment pieces themselves to reflect any particular style lines you need for your impression.

[edwardwatson]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

Cody Mobley (The Company Tailor) will draft a home procured frock pattern to your measurements for $25.00 according to an email he sent me a few months ago. I plan to do that once I get few other projects out of the way. Hope that helps.

Edward Watson

[modelf85]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

Sorry, I meant a civilian frock.
here is the Frock:

http://www.gallarock.com/m-004.JPG

Here is the link:

http://www.gallarock.com/menspatterns.html

Thanks,

[S.D.Foster]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

This may be another useful resource:

http://www.rlshep.com/HTML/booklist.htm

My wife used their book "Early Victorian Men" I think it was, to draft my civilian frock coat pattern. It came out petty well, but the instructions were written in the early 19th century, and as such were a little confusing from a modern standpoint.

I should also mention my wife has a degree in apparel design, and experience in historical pattern drafting. There is no way I could have used this book by myself and come out with anything looking right, let alone fitting well.

I'm pleased with the end result. (even though I like my CS frock much better).

Sean Foster

[Drygoods]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

What I would like to know is this, are the Galla Rock patterns any good? Are they more for the mainstream crowd? How close do they come together in terms of construction and sewing technique.....are they easy or advanced?

[neocelt]

This is not a frock!

Hampton,

The illustration you posted is from Galla Rock's website, but appears to be for a Homespun pattern. Further, the illustration is of a paletot, NOT a frock coat. Both were popular gent's garments during the antebellum period, but I certainly wouldn't put much faith in a pattern maker who doesn't know the difference between the two! A well tailored, properly constructed frock coat is indeed a wondrous thing to behold, but it is also the most complicated period garment you could possibly find and represents the ne plus ultra of the tailor's art. The correct construction and tailoring of the frock coat is a challenge for even the professionally-trained tailor; properly executed it is truly a masterpiece, and IMHO precious few makers of reproduction period citizen's toggery are capable of doing it justice. I'd recommend you think long and hard before you ruin a rather large quantity of expensive broadcloth--this is no 'DIY' project...

Cheers,

[modelf85]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

No, there is a Frock. I know of the Paletot.

This is a paletot, as Im sure that you know: http://www.cornerclothiers.com/paletot1.jpg

This is a frock: http://www.gallarock.com/m-004.JPG

http://www.cornerclothiers.com/frock2.jpg

The only difference seems to be that the paletot is double breasted, They do have the same pockets, but the cut to a frock is very similar looking. Possibly, the difference is that the waist is not fitted, I cant really tell from the sketch. However, there is not enough difference to really tell. To me it looks like a frock because the waist seems fitted and it appears to go above the knees. Im not master tailor, however I know how to sew and my mother is pretty darn good at it. She has made numerous costumes for past school plays and halloween things, in addition to some of my reenacting stuff like my SA fatigue blouse. She made me a not so period correct frock back in the day for my 5th grade halloween whatsamajigger. So, Im pretty sure that I/She would not be a bumbling fool when it came to making a frock.

Oh well, Thanks for your reply.

P.S. Im not sure what it is, Im not that interested in the frock anymore.

[tmdreb]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

I don't think Homespun sells a paletot pattern, the picture in the post is indeed the one on their civilian frock pattern. It is simplified, and does not show the waist seam that would be present in a frock.

[ThehosGendar]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

The only difference seems to be that the paletot is double breasted,

There's quite a difference between the paletot and the frock. Consider a paletot a sort of a mutant sack coat-frock coat hybrid, leaning towards more of a fitted sack coat. The paletot, while double-breasted (there are double-breasted frocks), does not have a waist seam with a skirt as the frock does. The forepart of the paletot is one piece which extends from the collar to above the knee. The forepart of a frock however, extends from the collar to the waist, where the skirt then attaches.

The paletot by Past Patterns, while cool, for our period, is a bit stretching it. To me, it screams 1840s... the wide lapels and collar, the tight sleeves are all indications of earlier styles. Heck, the sketch on the cover of the pattern is an 1840s dag. in the Library of Congress collection. By the 1860s, looser fitting jackets like the sack are prevalent, and not quite so form-fitting frocks, as well as the wide elbows in the sleeves. Check out the group shots in the LOC's Civil War collection of clerks from the War and Quartermaster's Department for a good idea of 1860s men's coat styles, get one of the basic sack or frock patterns, and start tweaking!

For paletots for our period, you're actually making an overcoat. So, make something a few sizes bigger than what you normally wear, try to bell out the elbows, and you'll have yourself a nice winter overcoat.

(Image: Daguerreotype collection (Library of Congress),
DAG no. 1189, "Occupational portrait of a peddler, full-length, standing, facing front, with two bags held at his sides by a harness, neck brace visible between legs")

[tmdreb]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

Devere's book is quite enlightening on the subject. He puts what we call paletots and sack coats in the same section of his patternmaking book, calling both styles "paletots." You're right in that what we're calling a paletot is closest to a fitted sack. Devere shows them in varying degrees of closeness around the waist.

I haven't seen the PP pattern aside from the illustration on the website, but it would need updating for an 1860's appearance. Toning down the size of the lapels and straightening the forearm seam of the sleeves would help accomplish this.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

I haven't seen the PP pattern aside from the illustration on the website, but it would need updating for an 1860's appearance. Toning down the size of the lapels and straightening the forearm seam of the sleeves would help accomplish this.

Modifying this pattern to make it correct for the 1860s is more work than it's even worth! Indeed it's pointless! This coat has a fashionably long waist, as exibited on other paletots of this time period 1845-1855, it is also too fitted for a coat of the 60s in addition to the large collar, revers and tighter sleeves. The pattern for the Past Patterns Double Breasted Paletot is from a Fall 1849 full size tailors plate. That's great for me because I do California Gold Rush 1849-1855 and have made three of these coats for myself, but I would never wear this coat for an 1860s impression or even waste my time trying to modify it, because I still wouldn't get the right look. Shop around for other patterns and if you can't find any that work (which is probably the case) look into having a pattern made for yourself or, if you have a lot of time, practice making it yourself, you have Devere's book.

When I started my civilian impression I quickly realized there weren't very many good patterns out there, especially for Antebellum (my primary interest). So I purchased copies of original pattern drafting manuels and started practicing. Three years of dedicated work and constant practice and I can custom draft any pattern in any size I like! You can also find many drafts available for men's clothing and once you understand how to draft them to full size bingo, your set! I have a friend who owns three bound Minister's Gazette of Fashion for 1852, 1858 and 1860, I can't wait to get a hold of copies of all the pattern drafts of men's clothing in there. Boya!:D

[neocelt]

Re: Past Patterns Single Breasted frock

Hampton,

I meant no offense, but that doesn't alter the fact: The garment illustrated in the link you provided (http://www.gallarock.com/m-004.JPG) is NOT a frock coat; rather, it bears all of the characteristic features of the paletot. Indeed, with the exception of being single-breasted, the pen-and-ink illustration in question bears a striking resemblance to the paletot being modeled by Speedy Merrick on the aforementioned Corner Clothiers website (see: http://www.cornerclothiers.com/paletot2.jpg). As Jason Wickersty clearly outlined, the paletot is a garment whose styling places it squarely between the informal sack coat and the formal frock coat (rendering it an uncommonly flexible garment and a wonderful addition to one's wardrobe!). I believe my comments regarding the level of difficulty involved in accurately reproducing a citizen's frock coat of the period are valid: While a correctly constructed and properly fitted frock coat is a real thing of beauty, the reverse applies to an improperly constructed and/or fitted frock. Unlike the relatively simple sack coat, the frock is decidedly NOT a forgiving garment for the neophyte tailor to practice on. That's my opinion, and I trust I still have a right to it...

All the best,