men's trouser's question

[Annette Bethke]

How common is the buckle straps on the back of civilian men's trousers? Would it be accurate to eliminate them? Would something else be required in their place?

Ok. Several questions :).

Annette Bethke
Austn Tx

[sauguszouave]

Re: men's trouser's question

Annette,

I've never seen an original pair of dress trousers without them, and I've looked at lots. However, I haven't looked at many work/laborers trousers so I can't speak to those.

The waist of Civil-War period trousers sits at the natural waist. That means the trousers have to have an hour-glass shape. Wide enough at the top for the bottom of the ribs, narrow at the waist, and wider below for the hips. You can tailor them to that shape, but it is easier to allow a little adjustment at the narrowest part with a belt. The belt doesn't hold them up, suspenders do, but they fit better and look neater if they are properly waisted.

The other thing is that, unfortunately, most men don't stay the same shape very long. Common practice was to tailor dress trousers with a little "V" of extra material in the back of the waist so they could be let out over time. It is much easier to let out the waist at the back seam rather than the side seams. The little belt helps with that adjustment too. The belt on the back of vests serves the same purpose.

Men's fashion today is to wear the pants with the waist at the hips and many re-enactors wear their ACW pants too low for that reason. The little belt is useless if it sits on top of your butt; it has to sit above the hips.

Hope that helps,

Paul Kenworthy

[Annette Bethke]

Re: men's trouser's question

That's exactly what I needed to know, so I thank you for your response; it was very helpful.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: men's trouser's question

I just finished making a gentleman a pair of trousers using Saundra Rose Altman's Spring Bottom Winter Trouser pattern. The original pair the pattern is copied from does not have a belt back.

Many English tailor plates and pattern drafting systems refer to a type of trouser they call the "American Trouser," and is meant to be worn without suspenders. It has extra fishes (darts) in the waist to give a tighter fit in that region and the back of the waistband is a belt. The Handbook of Practical Cutting by Louis Devere has an example of this type of trouser.

Whether there is a belt back or not depends on how well you want to tailor the trousers.

[Annette Bethke]

Re: Spring Bottom Winter Trouser.

I just finished making a gentleman a pair of trousers using Saundra Rose Altman's Spring Bottom Winter Trouser pattern. The original pair the pattern is copied from does not have a belt back.

I can't find this pattern on her website? Do you know anyone who has it online to take a look at?

[sauguszouave]

Re: men's trouser's question

I've had the pleasure of accompanying Saunda on a couple of her research expeditions. We went through the men's dress wear collections at the Cooper-Hewitt, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the New York Historical Society, the National Museum of American History, and the Valentine in Richmond. We also went through the textile and document collections at the Library of Virginia and the U of V, Charlottesville. I'll go back and look at my photos again, but I don't remember any dress trousers without belts. I'll have to ask her about this.

Her interest at that time was in simple, light-weight mens wear, to contrast with the heavy, dark woolens that were ubiquitous in the hobby. The simple-cut summer trousers and the men's paletot were the result. Maybe the original in this case was a summer-weight too?

I'll let you know what I find out.

Regards,

Paul Kenworthy

[Ian McWherter]

Re: men's trouser's question

The pattern is called (I'm holding it in my hand) "Spring Bottom Winter Trousers With or Without Foot Straps Circa 1843-1856." The original pair did not have a belt back. Saundra does not have this pattern on her website as of yet but you can call her and order it. It is a funky trouser pattern as far as the construction is concerned. The person who made them originally had some funny ideas about trouser construction. Otherwise very common style of trouser.

[sauguszouave]

Re: men's trouser's question

Ian,

Taking this off in another direction, the "spring" at the cuff is something that I saw on virtually every pair of trousers that I looked at. The facing in the cuff and the spring make a real difference in the way trousers look. Also, they used to weave fabric for trousers with the side stripe woven in. You can fake it today with an extra seam, but it doesn't match the pattern of the fabric in exactly the same way.

Regards,

Paul

[Ian McWherter]

Re: men's trouser's question

Ian,

Taking this off in another direction, the "spring" at the cuff is something that I saw on virtually every pair of trousers that I looked at. The facing in the cuff and the spring make a real difference in the way trousers look. Also, they used to weave fabric for trousers with the side stripe woven in. You can fake it today with an extra seam, but it doesn't match the pattern of the fabric in exactly the same way.

Regards,

Paul

Not only is it common among surviving trousers, but if you take a close look at original photos as well you'll see that they're very common. The drape around the boot or shoe is very stylish. The key though, for people looking to make these type of trousers, particularly when working with generalized patterns, is to make sure that the cuff is properly tailored. This is especially true when making trousers in larger sizes, you don't want to look like your wearing bell bottoms.:wink_smil

It's also very helpful to baste in a piece of linen canvass at the front of the cuff, if you should desire, to help make the front of the cuff more rigid and give a better drape. (This is also evidenced in survivng originals)

[blt37thga]

Re: men's trouser's question

I've seen some without the buckle straps and others with them. I think its a personal thing. Some soldiers would just take them off.

Cprl. Ben Taylor
37th Ga Co.i
Hgb

[Cottoncarder]

Re: men's trouser's question

Made a pair for my other half. Hand sewn botton holes and a bit of raw hide through.

[ElizabethClark]

Re: men's trouser's question

Mr. Taylor, do the trousers you've seen without the back buckles show any evidence of once having had them, and having had them removed? Or have you come across notes or references from soldiers remarking on having done so?

[fedhead]

Re: men's trouser's question

I would like to also add a question to this thread, what were the most common fabrics used and what range of colours are commonly seen.

The social groups i am most interested in are farmers/skilled workers. I know this is a very large subject but i have no access to original examples. Any help would be greatly received .
thank you

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: men's trouser's question

Hallo!


"I've seen some without the buckle straps and others with them. I think its a personal thing. Some soldiers would just take them off."

Since adjustment belts were not part of Federal arsenal or contractor trousers, that would have to be a Confederate thing?

To further the discussion, would you post some primary source materials that support some soldiers taking them off, please?


Sorry, I did not notice that this was a resurrected ancient thread from 2006 before I posted...

Curt

[fedhead]

Re: men's trouser's question

Any help would be greatly received, i know that linen ,wool ,jean cloth were used but what was the most common and what were the most popular fabrics used in what states ?