What types of dishes?

[PvtWill]

Re: What types of dishes?

I have noted that people have had many questions regarding proper dishware and Ironstone in Particular.

My wife and myself have a rather large collection that is mostly comprised of "Pre-Tea Leaf "and "Tea Leaf Variants" dating mostly in the 1840's -1860.

We also have several polychrome and Oriental patterns dating to the 1820's, with some early transferware from the 1840's as well.

We have much white ironstone with lots of dated patterns from the 1840's & 1850's.

I would like to say it is all my wife's but I have rather caught an eye for it too.

We have collected for many years and go all over the country looking for the stuff.

We also have a nice library with many cook's books and women's guides, and home guides of the 1840's - the 1860's.

With that out of the way I would like to say that from our experience and travels, in America there seems to be no one pattern that people seemed to have...

They would keep to a general type (all white ironstone, or all Blue transferware, for instance) but seemed to mix and match within that type for their home serving (place)sets. ( They would also keep a piece or two of different types for display of a sort and or special occasion.)

Part of the reason for mixing and matching is that dinnerware was not sold in sets as we do today. It was sold as individual pieces with people buying what pieces they wanted.


For the average home Tea Sets as we now know them were VERY rare. People kept only as much dinnerware as they commonly used day to day. We must remember people did not have the storage we have now in our homes, and they were a lot more practical about using what they had.

The basic and average setting was a potato bowl, at least one platter usually two, a creamer, a Pitcher, some times a soup/all purpose tureen, sometimes a vegetable bowl, a coffee pot (for special occasion), a sugar bowl (always seems to be out for every meal) and plates and cups and saucers.

A note on cups and saucers. Cups were for the most part of the handleless variety. People would be served their hot beverage in the cups but would pour their cups into the saucer to cool and would drink from the saucers.

As many have mentioned it is a MUST to get a good reference guide as Ironstone has been made for a very long time. It is STILL made with many old mid 19th century patterns being recreated. "Red Cliff" is a name that has reproduced many patterns that would be appropriate for CW re-enacting.

As for the oft mentioned Meakin, some are proper for our era, MOST are not!
The varous Meakin's made a lot of ironstone, and a lot of it after 1880.

A good reference is needed!!

Any pottery piece with a "Made in England" or even just "England" under the makers mark is made after 1880. There were some new international trade laws requiring country of origin around this date.

As some have said there is still ironstone that is relatively inexpensive that would work fine for an improvement to our impression over the wood bowls and tin and pewter plates most use.

Ironstone does live up to its name too, it is still quite durable. My wife still serves on many of even her oldest pieces everyday, and we do use some at events. I a private soldier also carry a rather heavy plain ironstone cup in my haversack.

Remember wood and iron were first choices for meal preparation, just not for serving the meal in.

If any one has questions about a particular pattern or would even like help dating their ironstone, feel free to pm us.

I could go on about the subject forever......................

regards,

M Williams

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Some examples from my personal collection

Attached are images of some original pieces from my collection.

There are two ca. 1840 dodecagon (12 sided), pink lustre plates. You see the front and back.

There is one 1840 dinner plate. The pattern I believe was noted as Athenia or Athens (unfortunately, I lost the little card with that information). The details are of the center of the plate and the rim of the plate.

There is one ca. 1854 Wedgwood plate in the Corinthia pattern sold to me by avid dinnerware collector (and occasional forum stalker) Kathryn Coombs. The detail is of the center of the plate

[Drygoods]

Re: What types of dishes?

Mr. Williams, I thought yours was an excellent post. I'd agree with just about everything that you said, and quite right about people buying pieces instead of sets at their local mercantile. Ironstone was one of those styles of dishware where one could easily do this, plus keep a pattern going though a few decades. What some folks don't notice is that the some revival pieces that were sold in the 1970s were actually old original pieces that were not sold when the popularity faded 50+ years earlier.

I don't recall if I said this in an earlier post, however, I know that not everyone bought pieces, my family, for instance, bought huge sets. My 1830s transfer set that I picked up out of the snow in the yard comprised of place settings for 20! As the family was large, and I remember that these dishes in our youth were still being used as our 'everyday set' it boggles my mind to consider what the original size must have been. Since the elder family had 13 children, plus spouses, and their children, my Mother told me that the plate was enormous...all Staffordshire packed with them from England. And they did have some different tea sets, complete with tea set flatware, however, I believe that was not CW era but a little later.

It's an interesting thing to me to find that other families are much like my own, especially in the fact that things like this are kept, sometimes not well kept, but eventually are passed down from generations. I often wish that much of the stuff that I had gotten was not tossed. My father was famous for taking furnishings to the dump when my mother never knew, and I confess that I sold off a few hundred items when I needed ready money. I didn't worry about it much since I have so much, but sometimes I regret that I let something go. No doubt my ancestors thought and did the same and felt the same regrets.

I use my old china. I know that flips switches for some folks, but what the good is it if you never use it or see it? Why keep your whole life packed away in a box in the basement? Learn to enjoy what you have, use caution. If you don't take them out for events fine, but still take the time to enjoy those treasures that your family has left for you. With the glories of ebay and some well spent time reading, you can find period dishware to use in your camp.:D

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: What types of dishes?

Part of the reason for mixing and matching is that dinnerware was not sold in sets as we do today. It was sold as individual pieces with people buying what pieces they wanted.

For the average home Tea Sets as we now know them were VERY rare. People kept only as much dinnerware as they commonly used day to day. We must remember people did not have the storage we have now in our homes, and they were a lot more practical about using what they had.

The basic and average setting was a potato bowl, at least one platter usually two, a creamer, a Pitcher, some times a soup/all purpose tureen, sometimes a vegetable bowl, a coffee pot (for special occasion), a sugar bowl (always seems to be out for every meal) and plates and cups and saucers.

A note on cups and saucers. Cups were for the most part of the handleless variety. People would be served their hot beverage in the cups but would pour their cups into the saucer to cool and would drink from the saucers.


M Williams

Mr. Williams,

I had a few questions about your post. China is not my area of resarch but I have researched material culture in other areas.

You mentioned that dinnerware was not sold in sets. Did you mean, place settings?

In my files, I have an invoice of an "Dinner set" (exact quote from the printed china order form) in the Eagle pattern, that a doctor from VA purchased the following: 24 plates 1st size, 24 plates 2nd size, 24 plate 3rd size, none in 4th size,12 plate 5th size, 12 soups 1st size, 12 soups 2nd size, none 3rd size, 1 dish 1st size, 1 2nd size, 2 3rd size, 2 4th size, 2 5th size, 2 6th size, 4 covered dishes, 2 vegetable casseroles, 1 soup tureen, 2 sauce tureens, 2 sauce boats, 2 salad, 2 pickles, and none of the following: compotiers octogon, compotiers shell, compoteirs round, baskets, custards, pitchers. This was purchased March 27, 1860 for 32.00. I have seen the set or what was left of it at the museum. 132 pieces were purchased but notice that no cups and saucers or tea or coffee services were part of the set. One dozen handled cups and saucers were purchased the same day, for $1,50, as extra pieces but apparently were not considered as part of the "dinner set."

I have transcribed a number of store ledgers and have noticed that sets of plates and sets of cups and sauces were commonally sold I've also seen that the sale of china tea sets were not uncommon and the price that I found at a glance was $5. Plates were also sold individually as were mugs. There were many dishes, bowls and baking dishes also sold. Unfortunately there were no images included.

Looking at the china on the Steamboats Arabia and Betrand the it ranged from the common white ironstone and feather-edged to delicate china. There were china tea sets in the collection also. Cups were both with handles and handleless but most had handles.

Among the china on the steamboats the pieces were cups and saucers, mugs, plates of different sizes, tureens, bowls of various sizes for individual use and serving sizes, coffee and tea pots, pitchers, sugar bowls, novelty shaped bowls, yellowware, and various patterns of ironstone.

Even today, people can buy individual pieces of their china without having to purchase an entire place setting. In fact that is how I ended up getting most of my china sets.

[Drygoods]

Re: What types of dishes?

Mrs. Mescher,

It's my theory that most folks bought 'china' in sets. Even today when you go to even a hardware or discount store, most are sold as boxed sets with place settings for four people. You can also buy individual pieces, but I think that buying a 'boxed set' is still what most folks purchase. When you purchase china for a wedding and buy through a registry, most times you are told to buy a place setting for one or more which is then ordered and sent to the bride. However, this also, even though purchased as one set still would outfit the home to be included into a larger china cabinet.

In the past, having good sets (large purchases of individual patterns) of china meant that you had a certain standard within your home and community. Brides could still ask guests to buy individual place settings, but many times people would buy much more than one, or buy a luncheon set, breakfast set, coffee set, tea set, dessert dishes, or the serviceware pieces(basically the compliments to finish a set of dishware). When you consider the amount of china needed to fulfill all of the required courses for a dinner meal, it's no wonder why plate was so vast!

What I find is most sad to all of this is that people today have lost the art of knowing how to dine comfortably. Few today have courses, especially restaurants serve everything on one plate, plus few people know how to use flatware and use the same two utensils for everything. I know that this complaint sounds unbelievable fussy, but dining becomes a bit more special when you use different dishes and flatware for whichever course you're eating.:wink_smil

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: What types of dishes?

Judith,

Thank you for clarifying the meaing of "sets." I'm aware of the sets of china being sold today but I thought the discussion was on how china was sold in the 1860s.

I'm sure that people of means had more good china in larger quanities than people who had less money. But as the invoice I previously posted, the purchaser was clearly able to pick and choose what pieces they wished to purchase in the quanity they wished. On the invoice, the quanity was left blank and the amount was just filled in.

In the store ledgers that I have transcribed and others that I have in my collection and have not transcribed there are multiple purchases of china sets of cups and saucers, sets of plates, flatware in sets of knives and forks, and sets tea and tablespoons, and tea sets but no entire sets of china. I've done census profiles of the some of the purchasers and some were quite wealthy. (One store I transcribed was in the second largest slave holding county in VA and some residents in this area were very wealthy.) I do not have their family account books so they might have been purchased elsewhere but it is odd that none of the numerous ledgers, I have, include any records of full china sets on their books.

On the Steamboats Arabia and Bertrand, the china was displayed in a section so there is no way to determine if any of the china was part of a larger set.

Now on a modern note. It is unfortunate that manners and proper etiquette seem to have fallen by the wayside in the last generation but there are reports that younger people are going to etiquette classes to learn what was not learned in their childhood. As a home economics teacher, I thought it was very important to teach my three sons proper etiquette and manners and it has served them well in their adult life. But they did get a great deal of teasing about it when they were growing up but they did thank me for the learned behaviour later in life.

[Hank Trent]

Re: What types of dishes?

A note on cups and saucers. Cups were for the most part of the handleless variety. People would be served their hot beverage in the cups but would pour their cups into the saucer to cool and would drink from the saucers.

I think that would depend on the social class of the person. By the 1860s, etiquette books were speaking against it, meaning of course that some people were doing it, but it was no longer considered universally acceptable.

For example, from The Ladies' Book of Etiquette Fahsion and Manual of Politeness, 1860: "Do not pour coffee or tea from your cup into your saucer, and do not blow either these or soup. Wait until they cool."

"If you have acquired the habit of drinking tea and coffee, do not pour them out into the saucer to cool: saucers were made to hold the cup; they are not properly shaped for drinking." (From At Home and Abroad: Or, How to Behave by Mrs. Richards, 1853).

Ironically, I believe some saucers from the previous generation were deeper and shaped more for drinking. Here's an example of a couple cups and saucers dated to the 1810 era by an auction house, with deeper saucers. http://www.crescentcityantiques.com/...une2005/26.jpg

In a sort of Darwinian adaptation, forks grew more tines and knife blades grew narrower, as people switched to eating from their forks rather than knives, and cups grew handles and saucers grew flatter as more people drank from their cups rather than their saucers. I think both changes were well underway in the 1860s, though of course there was a lot of overlap during the transition.

Virginia Mescher wrote:

It is unfortunate that manners and proper etiquette seem to have fallen by the wayside in the last generation

I think every generation says exactly that.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Drygoods]

Re: What types of dishes?

Mrs. Mescher,

When I meant 'sets' I meant two things, first, that dishes were not always sold one plate at a time and second, for example, that a tea set, and a coffee set are distinctly two different things (meaning that the sizes of the cups, saucers, and pots are very different) The same with the size of a breakfast, luncheon, dinner, place,or tea plate &c...toss in course plates and their sizes and it is amazing. Naturally, I cannot comment on the doucments that you are reading, but I still think that when people ordered china for a large household, it was done in bulk purchases. If you were going to buy something from your local mercantile, I understand the few pieces here and there, but if you wanted to fill your cupboard/storage and get fine pieces, you'd have sent away a larger order. In other words, Staffordshire would have been a large order compared with ironstone, yelloware, lusterware, redware, &c. Plus, I don't really think that yelloware, rockingham, or redware would have been used as the table plate for the well to do, well, not the first choice anyway.

As for the decline in knowing how to dine, blame your grandparent's generation for that one. It was after WW1 and during the 1920s that the large number of service dishes and flatware declined. Thank Herbert Hoover for limiting the number of silver sold in flatware sets down to 55 pieces (today you can only find sets with 25 pieces). Also, I can't think of anyone who does a good reproduction set of flatware, all the forks are way too flat to be used properly. And old Lemonade Lucy is the one who started the decline of glassware styles that were used at the white house. Today it is almost impossible to find green hock glass for rhine wines.

I've been working on this subject for almost 5 years now, probably longer if you count how long I've collected, and hope to get an article about it published shortly. Still, it's one of my favorite things to collect and use daily.:wink_smil

[ElizabethClark]

Re: What types of dishes?

I think the distinction is that these days (2007), if a young, newly householding person goes off to purchase dishes, they will, at the local housewares shop, most often encounter dishes in sets: 4 place settings, 8 place settings. "Open stock" is the modern arrangement closest to the situation Virginia mentions, where the individual fills an order for their specific needs, in a "set" (as in, one set order)... which might be 4 dozen soup plates, 6 coffee cups, and 42 dinner plates, if they so desire. So, adjusting modern minds to common arrangements of the past, it's fair to note that it would be rare to see pre-packaged table service in tidy "sets" of four or eight settings, mid-century, according to the store records available that show a more "open stock" arrangement where any desired quantity might be ordered in or purchased over time.

Which publication will carry the article? I'd love to read a copy! (Particularly if you have suggestions on modernly-produced items that may meet historic needs, for those of us who do not have antique pieces, and do not live in areas with any concentrations of antique pieces, or who do not wish to subject antique pieces to "field use" rigors.)

[jgr1974]

Re: What types of dishes?

Been awhile since this post was added to!

I started researching here for civilian table ware, I ended up finding an interesting "modern" pattern on ebay. The pattern is named Heritage, and is made by Pfaltzgraff. According to one dealer Phaltzgraff started making "ironware" in 1839.
This is a simple but elegant pattern that should fit right into our era. I have included a couple of pics the one with the handle is the Pfaltzgraff, the one without is from Carter and Jasper's sight. Minus the handle the look almost identical. This would be a great and cheap pattern for the citizens!

The Mad MIck!!!

[PvtWill]

Re: What types of dishes?

From my research and from invoices in my collection, the term of a china "set" referred to pieces of the same pattern and type rather than any specific number of dishes or place settings as we now know them. As noted purchases were made in varied quantities dependent upon the needs of the house. They were not offered in retail sets of so many pieces and place settings as we know them now.

Even the invoice offered by Virginia Mescher helps bear this out with omissions in some plate sizes while including others and not offering the set complete by any means. The simple fact of all the pieces being itemized rather than simply listed as "such and such dinner set" shows that the pieces were ordered as needed.

Regards,

mark