Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

[BrianHicks]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Hey Brian....

When did Marines start wearing snivel gear?

Your not letting this retirement thing make you soft are you?

Now go do some flutter kicks.....

Best,

:baring_te :baring_te :baring_te :baring_te

:confused_




It's easy to be hard.

It's hard to be smart!


:D

Now... that's the Marine Corps Way!

;)

See you at Shiloh?

[J.H.Berger]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Brian, I can only recommend Mike Woshner's book about ruber. He has listedseveralperiod advertisements for civilian rain coats etc.
It seems to me that this stuff was far more freqeunt than we think today.

[prestontoprail]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Observe the photo from Mark's post above and look at the man sitting down. Now is it just me , or does that guy have on india rubber trousers?

[Annette Bethke]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Observe the photo from Mark's post above and look at the man sitting down. Now is it just me , or does that guy have on india rubber trousers?

I thought the samething at first, but I think it's actually something over his leg; if you look further up the leg there appears to be a break in the rubber.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

John T. Little operated several large mercantile stores in the Coloma area (Where Gold was first discovered) during the early days of the CA Gold Rush. These are some items I selected from his store inventories.

From the El Dorado County Record Book A, John T. Little to Assignees, dated January 7, 1851:

4 Glazed Caps
3 Indua rubber caps
7 India rubber hats
30 pair India rubber mittens
4 Indua rubber bags
1 India rubber saddle bag
1 pr. India rubber leggins (Maybe like in the photograph?)
4 india rubber pouches
1 India rubber vest (Don't ask me)
2 pr. india rubber boots (very common, numerous photos in "Silver and Gold" show these boots)...

So you see, all manner of India rubber goods were very common.:)

[FDTaylor]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

There's also at least one notice of the availability of a "rubber coat" for sale in the Richmond Daily Dispatch, March 11, 1861:

http://dlxs.richmond.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ddr;cc=ddr;type=simple;rgn=div2;q1=rubber%20coat;view=text;subview=detail;sort=occur;idno=ddr0111.0019.058;node=ddr0111.0019.058%3A7.6

------
Fred D. Taylor
Co. G, Portsmouth Rifles
9th Virginia Infantry

[neocelt]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Ladies & Gents:

Thanks to Charles Goodyear, vulcanized rubber products were in fact quite common by the beginning of the Civil War. Indeed, Goodyear's mind-boggling array of rubber goods was one of the most popular exhibits at London's Crystal Palace Exhibition in 1851. Amongst the rubber goods available at this early date were air mattresses (oh my!). Yes, they even saw service with officers in the Crimean War (those poor benighted farbs!). As far as I'm aware, the only known extant example of the U.S. Army's talma (which, incidentally, was only issued to mounted troops) is carefully stored away in the bowels of the Tojhusmuseet in Copenhagen, Denmark. Talmas do show up in limited numbers in QM inventories throughout the war, but in light of the limited numbers that were produced for the antebellum regular army, perhaps this is indicative of a lack of intent to issue them. For what it's worth, Jarnagin is now offering a rubberized rain coat (now put those stones away!). Finally, this type of raincoat or Macintosh ("Mac" for you Brits) was common until quite recently: About 15 years ago I picked one up in a thrift store here in central Virginia that would easily pass for the mid-19th c. product...

Cheers,

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Gee, that "talma," or raincoat, C&D Jarnagin is selling looks suspiciously like the one in the Sanitary Commission photograph, could the "talma" have been inspired by a civilian coat of the day, hmm? (I'm being sarcastic)

[Utley]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Great discussion everyone,

I have looked at picking up one of the Jaragin coats, but from what I can gather the original coats had vulcanized seams (someone correct me if my terminology is wrong), therefore sealing the seams and making the garment waterproof. I've not handled a Jarnagin coat, but I've heard that their seams are sewn and not vulcanized. I do know that their early groundclothes (bought mine almost twenty years ago) were vulcanized by someone other than Jarnagin. I guess my questions are 1. Were all the originals that have been viewed made with vulcanized seams, and 2. How does Jarnagin's stack up? (Might need to move this to other vendor discussion I guess, but it's following the track of the original question.)

Thanks!

[neocelt]

Chicken or egg...

Ian,

This is not a "chicken or egg" argument; the civilian garment is the antecedent of the military one--so what's your point? I have no idea whether Jarnagin labels their offering as a military talma or not, but frankly, who cares? Chris: I emailed Jarnagin with some specific questions regarding this product and did not receive the courtesy of a response--perhaps you'll have more luck...

Cheers,

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Chicken or egg...

Ian,

This is not a "chicken or egg" argument; the civilian garment is the antecedent of the military one--so what's your point? I have no idea whether Jarnagin labels their offering as a military talma or not, but frankly, who cares?

I don't care whether Jarnagin calls it a military coat or not either, my point is that there are those who want to separate military and civilian clothing into two wholly separate sphere's without any understanding as to how one influences the other. Just trying to prevent individuals from saying "That Talma's labeled as a military coat, so I can't use it for my civilian impression.":wink_smil

[El Dorado]

Re: Chicken or egg...

I don't care whether Jarnagin calls it a military coat or not either, my point is that there are those who want to separate military and civilian clothing into two wholly separate sphere's without any understanding as to how one influences the other. Just trying to prevent individuals from saying "That Talma's labeled as a military coat, so I can't use it for my civilian impression.":wink_smil

The following is from Fashions for Men 1850 - 1870 by Diana Newington

"A typical man's wardrobe can be surmised from Judge Benjamin Hayes' traveling clothing of 1850 - he even included the prices that he had to pay for them":

1 coat and pants, (grey) $8.55
1 vest $2.25
1 pr. Pataloons, (blue) $3.37
hat ($3) boots $3
2 pr. shoes $3
5 white shirts $7.00
6 handkerchief $5.00
Dragoon overcoat $8.00 (Mexican War Surplus?)
1 pr. buckskin gloves $.50
6 pr. socks $1.50


A Great Coat shows up again on the same page in the following description.

"According to the coroner, "the deceased had a white California hat over his face the hat had a black ribbon around it, the body covered with a light blue great coat, lined with woolen plaid of read check, cordoroy trousers, yellow vest, black silk neck handkerchief about his neck, a woolen dark read vest, striped cotton shirt thick peg'd boots and laying in a blanket and covered with a blanket.

Kind regards,
Chris Ownby

[Matthew Semple]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

What I have found with current reproduction talmas on the market is that they are lacking specific details that the originals exhibit. For example, the button holes are not reinforced with additional material like the originals were. Another example is the lack of vulcanized seams in the reproductions. The original I have seen and taken notes on had vulcanized seams and a severe lack of stitching.

Attached is portion of a photo I posted earlier in this thread which shows both on an original.

[Drygoods]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

I have a copy of a catalogue from 1856, for Davis Bros., clothing from Boston, the entire catalougue is for India Rubber items. A listing of the coats are as follows; fireman's coats, capes or cloaks, officers coats, cape or cloaks with sleeves, sack coats, fireman's capes, pea coats, ponchos or sarapas, reefing jackets, and sportsmen's coats. These are sold vulcanized or solarized, and either black or white, and some white printed. The illustrations are very dark and hard to make out, so you basically only get the shape of the figure of the illustrated man wearing the coats.:(

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

What I have found with current reproduction talmas on the market is that they are lacking specific details that the originals exhibit. For example, the button holes are not reinforced with additional material like the originals were. Another example is the lack of vulcanized seams in the reproductions. The original I have seen and taken notes on had vulcanized seams and a severe lack of stitching.

A reproduction that doesn't match up to the original, Oh My!

As is the case for any reproduction civilian item, they don't make 'em the way they use to.