Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

An overlooked item of waterproof clothing are the so-called "seamless" wool felt cloaks, capes, trousers, caps, hats, and overcoats offered to the general public by the Seamless Clothing Manufacturing Company. Examples of these types of garments can be seen in some war-time images of the Berdan's Sharpshooters, who were first issued gray seamless felt overcoats with detachable capes as well as those ugly but loveable seamless caps ("Whipple Caps"). In my efforts to learn more about these garments I haven't run across descriptions detailing HOW these garments were made, nor have I personally handled an original seamless garment.

However, there is one known surviving seamless felt overcoat in a private collection that has been studied by Don Troiani. Don graciously sent me images of this garment and it really is, surprisingly, completely seamless in it's construction. The coat is sky blue, double-breasted, has a large fall-down collar, and the entire raw felt perimeter is covered with a dark blue worsted wool tape.

War-time accounts from Sharpshooters in the field show that these types of foul-weather garments were indeed great rain-shedders but once they dried out they became warped and stiff as a board.

I have found only a small handful of accounts linking seamless garments to the civilian market. One was a short blurb advertising seamless "greased" wool felt overcoats, slickers, capes, and storm hats. I presume that the "greased" felt means it was saturated or coated with something icky and waterproof. The other document was a correspondence between Col. Hiram Berdan and George McClellan discussing the fact that Seamless Clothing Manufacturing Company not forwarding overcoats to his men with the proper trim and buttons (rather than dark green trimmings and rubber buttons, they were trimmed with red and had red metal buttons). The reply from the company was that they were unable to provide the green-trimmed overcoats up front but would send more of what they had on hand in their shop.

I gave up on my project to reproduce at least one seamless overcoat simply because I have no clue how they did it. One method I tried was needle-felting but the overlapped and felted "seams" I came up with were too weak to support much stress. I toyed with the idea of just making the thing with a very minimal number of seams but this detracts from the finished product, and does not meet the original product's intention of preventing rainwater from seeping through seams.

If anyone has further information on seamless felt foul-weather garments then pipe up!

Brian White
Wambaugh, White, & Co.

https://www.wwandcompany.com

[BrianHicks]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Thanks to everyone who contributed information here.

From what we have presented here, it seems pretty obvious that there are not many products to choose from, which one could use as a period Rain Coat.

I know of only two sources for 'Talmas' one has been offered for a while now, the other is a new offering, but... I went down and saw what they had before I posted my original question here, and I knew immediately that it wasn't an item I'd use.

So what is available?

[calico_outlaw]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

An article of clothing does not need to be made out of rubber to be waterproof.
The link below is an article from 1861, that finds rubber unfit and gives an alternate. Also you can line a garmet with oiled silk, making it waterproof.

http://moa.cit.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fscia%2Fscia1004%2F&tif=00331.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DABF2204-1004-23

[BrianHicks]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

An article of clothing does not need to be made out of rubber to be waterproof.
The link below is an article from 1861, that finds rubber unfit and gives an alternate. Also you can line a garmet with oiled silk, making it waterproof.

http://moa.cit.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/m...BF2204-1004-23

A friend and I are looking at alternatives. Perhaps something similar to a modern Australian Oilskin Coat? But of mid 19th century make.

The non-rubberized items discussed here are the sort of areas, or items I'm really interested in.

Thanks again to everyone that has posted here, and if anyone has more info... please share!

[neocelt]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

I know of only two sources for 'Talmas' one has been offered for a while now, the other is a new offering, but... I went down and saw what they had before I posted my original question here, and I knew immediately that it wasn't an item I'd use.

Brian,

Could you be more specific? Which two products did you look at and in what areas did you find them to be deficient? I have not seen Jarnagin's raincoat in the flesh and wasn't aware of anything similar being available. As no one has yet offered an evaluation of any product, your input would be most appreciated.

Cheers,

[BrianHicks]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

I would prefer not getting into evaluating reproductions, when I have not had the opportunity to view an original.

The two sellers of Talmas that I wrote of, are Jarnigan, and the Blockaderunner.

The one that I have seen, is the one offered by the Blockaderunner (I drove down to their store last week). While I can't compare their product to an original, I can say that the cloth they used, onto which the rubber was applied as the outer coating, appeared to be a modern polyester blend type cloth. I'm not an expert on Rubber, but what they used was far more plasticized in feel and appearance, than rubberized. The seams appeared to be all modern, machine sewn (particularly the button holes).

Now.. please... keep in mind... I'm not educated at all, nor do I have much experience in evaluating modern garments in view of manufacturing styles compared to period items, methods or styles. My comments here are nothing more than my uneducated observations.

We know that Jarnigan had for a long time, been the only ones offering a Talmas. From what we have seen posted here, their reproduction doesn't seem to measure up fully to an original period one, but... I have heard (and perhaps it's because they were the only ones selling them for so long) that their Talma wasn't so horrendous as to be denied off-hand (especially when it's a heavy rain?!?!).

Sort of a paradox? Only one maker of an item, but that reproduction isn't perfect, but it's utility can't be denied.... do you use it anyway? Or do you refuse it, and suffer for the lack of it?

[K. Krewer]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

I have an original woman's coat that I believe to be a raincoat -- it is linen, either so tightly woven or treated in some way as to be water repellant.

I found this out when I was trying to gently iron a trim to lie flat, and sprayed a little bit of water on it -- and found, to my great surprise, that it didn't soak in at all!

K. Krewer
(please, no more warnings, that IS my name!)

[Anna Allen]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Is this the coat you were referring to, K?

[neocelt]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

We know that Jarnigan had for a long time, been the only ones offering a Talmas. From what we have seen posted here, their reproduction doesn't seem to measure up fully to an original period one

Brian,

I appreciate your candor and I can understand your reticence to venture into a critical analysis without adequate info. Still, you told me everything I need to know about the Blockade Runner offering. However, I'm still curious about the Jarnagin "talma": I believe Chris Utley is the only poster to comment on the construction details of the Jarnagin offering, and he said that he had heard from someone that it featured sewn seams rather than vulcanized ones. I guess I was just sort of assuming that since Jarnagin pride themselves (and rightly so) on being the first maker to offer a vulcanized ground cloth/poncho, that the raincoat would also be constructed in this manner. Has anyone out there actually surveyed this elusive beast with the Mk I Eyeball? I'd be interested to know if it is constructed of the same material they use for their ground cloth (or "gum blanket," as they persist in calling it), if the seams are indeed vulcanized and if the buttonholes are sewn or simply cut with a buttonhole chisel through a reinforced area of vulcanized material. Anyone?

Cheers,

[J.H.Berger]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

What I have found with current reproduction talmas on the market is that they are lacking specific details that the originals exhibit. For example, the button holes are not reinforced with additional material like the originals were. Another example is the lack of vulcanized seams in the reproductions. The original I have seen and taken notes on had vulcanized seams and a severe lack of stitching.

Attached is portion of a photo I posted earlier in this thread which shows both on an original.

Matthew, do you have more pictures and details of this specific coat?

[neocelt]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Oops! Obviously I misspoke when I noted that only Mssr. Utley had commented on the construction details of the repro. raincoats (my apologies, Matthew!). But I still haven't heard any specific comments/criticism regarding the Jarnagin offering. I had the opportunity to examine the Stinchfield raincoat years ago (while it was still in the Stamatelous collection) and it is of entirely vulcanized construction (no stitching). On the other hand, the undated example I own features sewn construction throughout with the rubber coating applied after assembly (over the cloth and the stitching, and to both sides of the textile). As has been established in this thread, rubber items were all the rage in the 1850s (raincoats included), and I have no doubt that there were numerous "variations on a theme" in the design and construction of rubber rain gear duirng the period. There are quite a few contemporary references to India rubber coats being worn by both Federal and Confederate soldiers, and a few lucky Yankee horse-soldiers were even issued talmas (the 2nd Iowa Cavalry, for example--see Sibley to Crossman, 3 Dec 63, NARS, Office of the QM Genl, Letters Sent [Clothing & Equipage], v. 18, p. 672, RG 92). Painted cloth was presumably also used for such garments (just as it was for ground cloths and foul weather covers for headgear). I used to own a full length painted cloth raincoat that was intended for issue to British "bobbies"; there was nothing about it that would have distinguished it from its mid-19th century counterpart--exept the government stamp dated 1952!

Cheers,

[K. Krewer]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Is this the coat you were referring to, K?

Yeppir, that's it! Trust you to be able to find a picture of it!

K. Krewer

[Matthew Semple]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Matthew, do you have more pictures and details of this specific coat?

Mr. Berger,

The only pictures that I have of the Private George Stinchfield Coat are the ones that The Horse Soldier had posted on their website. I saw the coat in their store when it was offered for sale. When I asked to snap pictures, they said that I could get pictures off of their website and I figured that those would do. Now I wish I had more detailed shots of the construction.

Here is what I wrote down for my personal notes on the coat while in the store:

Rubber raincoat ID'd to Private George Stinchfield (12th Maine)
Black India Rubber coat/talma. No visible machine stitching on the exterior and seams look vulcanized. The rubber is stiff due to age and appears to be rubber coated cotton. Material used in high quality reproduction ground cloths is comparable but coat material seems lighter weight. (lighter weight material? age?) Double breasted with 10 buttons. Two pockets. Did not ask to have removed from Manikin because very fragile. Rubber has flaked away in areas.

I wish I had more to offer about this particular coat.

But I still haven't heard any specific comments/criticism regarding the Jarnagin offering.

Mr. Nichols,

In my previous post I was talking about the Jarnagin and Blockade Runner talmas. My apologies for not posting that orginally.

What I have found with current reproduction talmas on the market is that they are lacking specific details that the originals exhibit. For example, the button holes are not reinforced with additional material like the originals were. Another example is the lack of vulcanized seams in the reproductions. The original I have seen and taken notes on had vulcanized seams and a severe lack of stitching.

I hope that this helps answer your questions.

[snowjacob]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Matt where did you get the India rubber? becuase im in the need of some.
thanks,

[Matthew Semple]

Re: Civilian Rain Coats or outer Garments

Mr. Snow,

Sorry for the lateness of my response. I looked through my records and I bought it from a maker in England back in 2003. Unfortunately, they are no longer making the rubberized cloth and I have not been able to find a good source since.