Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

[turfwriter]

Hi there. I was wondering: Has anyone come across any references to/precedent for the use of wider grosgrain ribbon for ladies' belts during our period?

The only references I've stumbled upon refer to men's hat bands, which is hardly surprising, I guess!

Many thanks,
Laurel Scott
Union Bridge, MD

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

Hi there. I was wondering: Has anyone come across any references to/precedent for the use of wider grosgrain ribbon for ladies' belts during our period?

The only references I've stumbled upon refer to men's hat bands, which is hardly surprising, I guess!

Many thanks,
Laurel Scott
Union Bridge, MD

Laurel,

I don't know if this will help but in _Historic Accounts_ there were a number of sales of yardages of "belt ribband" but it was non-specific ribbon. There were other sales of yardages of satin and velvet belt ribband.

Since my area of research is not fashion, I have not viewed that many original belts so I can't tell you if the above belt ribband was gros grain ribbon.

[Carolann Schmitt]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

First, a clarification:

Period ribbons woven with a pronounced horizontal rib were called Petersham. Petersham:
- Is woven to a specific width.
- Was usually woven from either all silk, or with a silk warp and cotton weft.
- Has a very slight 'scallop' to the edge where the weft threads are wrapped in the weaving process.
- Due to the natural fiber and the woven edge, is flexible and can be shaped and curved.
- Is still available today, usually in 100% silk, with a rayon warp and cotton weft, or 100% rayon.

Modern gros grain ribbon:
- Is woven as a fabric in wide widths, 72" or more.
- Is cut into narrow ribbon widths with a hot knife that seals the edges at the same time.
- Is usually 100% polyester or a poly/cotton blend.
- Cannot be shaped or curved.
- Does not have the same appearance, texture, or hand as petersham and usually cannot be used for the same application.

I have an original woman's belt in my collection that is made from the "belt ribband" that Virginia mentioned. It somewhat resembles petersham on steroids: same general weaving technique but much heavier threads, a more pronounced scallop to the edge, much more durable. It might look like wide petersham from 50 feet, but it is not the same textile as period petersham, and does not look anything like modern gros grain ribbon.

Over the years I've found vintage belt ribbon in varying quantities, and there are a few manufacturers still making it - primarily for high-end, ready-to-wear clothing and accessories manufacturers.

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

First, a clarification:

Period ribbons woven with a pronounced horizontal rib were called Petersham. Petersham:
- Is woven to a specific width.
- Was usually woven from either all silk, or with a silk warp and cotton weft.
- Has a very slight 'scallop' to the edge where the weft threads are wrapped in the weaving process.
- Due to the natural fiber and the woven edge, is flexible and can be shaped and curved.
- Is still available today, usually in 100% silk, with a rayon warp and cotton weft, or 100% rayon.

I have an original woman's belt in my collection that is made from the "belt ribband" that Virginia mentioned. It somewhat resembles petersham on steroids: same general weaving technique but much heavier threads, a more pronounced scallop to the edge, much more durable. It might look like wide petersham from 50 feet, but it is not the same textile as period petersham, and does not look anything like modern gros grain ribbon.

Over the years I've found vintage belt ribbon in varying quantities, and there are a few manufacturers still making it - primarily for high-end, ready-to-wear clothing and accessories manufacturers.

Thank you Carolann for explaining belt ribband.

It is a shame when the store owners wrote in the ledgers that they didn't include swatches of all the textiles and related items they sold. It certainly would make our lives a great deal easier.

[Carolann Schmitt]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

It is a shame when the store owners wrote in the ledgers that they didn't include swatches of all the textiles and related items they sold. It certainly would make our lives a great deal easier.

It certainly would! :)

I was especially interested to read that the ledgers also included entries for satin and velvet belt ribband. I've seen original belts made from these materials but was not certain of their name or how they would be described. Thanks for the info.

[Drygoods]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

Hello Laurel,

Although I look at things from a Western CW perspective, I have found in SF papers grosgrain ribbon sold during the CW. Now, as a belt buckle collector, I do have some period buckles that have grosgrain ribbon belts. Naturally, I can't date when the belt was worn last, but I can safely say that the buckles were CW or earlier era.
Sorry, not very much help, just a few cents worth of yadayadayada.

[Carolann Schmitt]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

Hi, Judith -

Could you tell me if the San Francisco newspapers specifically refer to gros grain ribbon? If they do, could you provide more details, e.g. the name of the newspaper, date, etc.? I've found dozens of listings across the country for "gros grain", but they invariably refer to a silk fabric, not ribbon; and most of those references are post-war. I'd like to be able to add any additional documentation to my files.

Thanks!

[turfwriter]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

This is such a fascinating discussion -- I can't thank you all enough! And yes, I had heard of Petersham ribbon, but had assumed those were used more for bonnets.

Not having seen many original CW-era ladies' belts, I'm trying to determine which modern fabrics (besides satin and velvet) could be used to reproduce a ladies' belt with some semblance of accuracy. Any suggestions?

Laurel Scott
Union Bridge, MD

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

Hi, Judith -

Could you tell me if the San Francisco newspapers specifically refer to gros grain ribbon? If they do, could you provide more details, e.g. the name of the newspaper, date, etc.? I've found dozens of listings across the country for "gros grain", but they invariably refer to a silk fabric, not ribbon; and most of those references are post-war. I'd like to be able to add any additional documentation to my files.

Thanks!

Although textiles and fashion are not my area of research, I did find in the May 1864 issue of Godey's an article that mentioned gros grain ribbon. The article was referring to Paris fashions. "The newest style of sash is made with white gros grain ribbon very wide, with colored satin stripes, and these are called ceintures pekinees. They are fastened at the back with three hanging loops, the centre one falling upon the two others. They form a good finish to many toilets."

The next reference that I found was not until 1868 and was in Harper's Bazaar. The article was about Paris fashions. By 1869 Harper's Bazaar was reporting that gros grain ribbon was being worn in New York fashions as sashes and belts an confirmation dresses.

After that, it tends to appear pretty regularly as bonnet ribbons, bonnet trims, as a mauve cravat, headdress trims, dress trim, etc., In Appleton's in July 1869, they were advertising all widths of gros grain ribbon.

It would seem that the gros grain ribbon did exist but that it was not in America as as common item until after the war and even then it took some time for it to become widespread, even in New York.

[turfwriter]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

Very interesting indeed, Virginia. This is a big help -- thank you!

Laurel Scott
Union Bridge, MD

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

Very interesting indeed, Virginia. This is a big help -- thank you!

Laurel Scott
Union Bridge, MD

Laurel,

Just keep in mind that the first mention of gros grain ribbon in American publications was in 1864 describing Paris fashions and the ribbon did not really reach America until well after the civil war.

I just wanted to include the post war time-line for what I had found.

Carolann's post on the period and modern gros grain ribbons helped explain the differences so that one is not mistaking period belt ribband for gros grain ribbon. Now I can correct my mistake and go for the velvet or satin belts. For a more casual look, I may use black belt elastic.

[turfwriter]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

What about modern Petersham ribbon for belts? Has that been totally ruled out? I've found a source for it in a good selection of colors.

Thanks,
Laurel Scott
Union Bridge, MD

[Tabbico]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

Laurel, where did you find modern Petersham ribbon? I looked all over for it when I needed some to back knitted men's braces, and finally had to settle for 100% cotton grosgrain ribbon, which, I might mention, has a completely different feel than modern polyester grosgrain ribbon and I hoped would be more like the period ribbon.

Polly Steenhagen

[turfwriter]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

Polly, the Ribbonerie (www.theribbonerie.com) has quite a nice selection of modern Petersham in various widths and shades, as does The Sewing Place (www.thesewingplace.com).

However, I believe that both sell only the rayon Petersham (FYI, on the Ribbonerie website, you click on "grosgrain," and then on the link for Petersham). :)

Laurel Scott
Union Bridge, MD

[Tabbico]

Re: Uses for grosgrain ribbon?

Yes, and that is why I didn't get the Petersham, as it was synthetic (I was hoping you had found cotton Petersham). HOWEVER, the Ribbonerie IS the site where I did finally find 100% cotton milliner's grosgrain, which I did wind up using on my braces. It put me in that wonderful, modern dilemma - right material, wrong fiber vs. wrong material, right fiber :( .


Polly Steenhagen

https://www.2nddelaware.com