What do you look for in civilian events?

[Charles Heath]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Maggie, were you able to take advantage of either of the Trents' events at The Inn?

Noah, you may enjoy the various Harper's Ferry events in October and December, but they are 9-5 type living histories, and have certain limitations. I'm sure you remember Hank mentioning that a while back. I'll agree with you about GCV missing a number of stellar opportunities in favor of the annual CW stemwinder.

Trade events? Good Lord, what living history museums don't have trade events?

(Silvana, we enjoyed interacting with the tasty morsels left on yonder window sill.)

Pie thief long before confection larceny was deemed "kewl,"

[MissMaggie]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Maggie, were you able to take advantage of either of the Trents' events at The Inn?

I did get to the "school" they held several years ago while I was between stints of college. Now that I'm a more than full time student my trips out of the state are limited to visiting family in Illinois (which I don't think counts!) and a once a year treat to a Carolann class and visit to Maryland. Being broke in Wisconsin really doesn't lend itself to good reenacting which is why I take on a "make what you can with what you got" attitude that I share with a very good friend who enjoys the authentic side of the hobby but also can't get to the good events. The irony is that the one really good event I could get to out here happens to be during the school year right about opening for a show and if I were to ask my teachers for the time off to go I'd probably get several very nasty looks

[NoahBriggs]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Noah, you may enjoy the various Harper's Ferry events in October and December, but they are 9-5 type living histories, and have certain limitations. I'm sure you remember Hank mentioning that a while back. I'll agree with you about GCV missing a number of stellar opportunities in favor of the annual CW stemwinder.

Thanks. HAFE has finally begun to loosen up some. They have hired several interns and now uses us reenactors as additional volunteers to plump out their events. That's increased the "good information" the site gives out, rather than outdated interpretations. They are taking 'baby steps' towards new interpretation ideas, and for now they still have what you referred to as "rinse and repeat." Do the event on Saturday from 10-5, then the same thing Sunday from 11-4.

Officially first-person at HAFE (and other NPS sites) is not encouraged in the belief that the spectators won't get it. (This was discussed during a leadership and interpretation conference the NPS put on before the Wilderness event this year.) Hank Trent and I (and many others) can testify otherwise. Visitors are not as dumb as they appear.

They are offering classes on heirloom gardening, cooking and the like to all those interested. The problem with that is they charge the participants but in theory a spectator can come in to watch and get the same information for free.

Various high-quality citizens' organizations have staked out their "turf" like crinolined Crips and Bloods. The difference is, the crinolines have agreed in advance who interprets what display, and no drugs or automatic weapons are used in the interpretation of their stations.

GCV lost me when I realized they were only interested in Civil War-style MOUT scenarios (Military Operations on Urban Terrain), with one side sweeping the other out of town into an open area for the usual 50-yard clash where nobody dies.

[Charles Heath]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Noah,

You nailed the vagaries of both sites with both barrels in a precise sort of way. The opera house at GCV fascinates me, and with a few modest nods to modern fire safety (and all that goes with that), it would be a heck of a location for an "evening at the show."

Harper's Ferry is what it is, but it has some excellent moments. I often wonder if anything of significant interpretive value ever happens over at the Kennedy Farm of John Brown fame.

[LindaTrent]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

I did get to the "school" they held several years ago while I was between stints of college.

No offense, but I regret putting it on and wouldn't do it again. The things that were taught there could have been taught online or at an event, and it used resources that could have been used to put on an actual event. Looking back on it what did you learn there that you couldn't learn in the months leading up to a better event on the yahoogroups, or at an event itself?

People want places where they can go to socialize, learn how to be a better reenactor and whatever else, but when do they actually get to the better events? The learning itself becomes the end product, instead of a way to progress and get beyond the gear and arrive at the ultimate goal -- a better event. I don't see a large turnaround of those who attended coming out to the better events. In fact, most of those who are new didn't come to the COI.

I learned with the COI that schools like that really assist in killing the EBUFU movement because (using you as an example) you put your money into the COI instead of going to a better event. And in my case, I put all my energy into organizing what was really a mainstream event to teach people, well as I said above, the very things we talk about on the event yahoogroups leading up to event time. Instead of doing that I could have focused my attention on putting on a better event.

And what did the COI accomplish in the end? Not much. The thing is, the events themselves are the proof in the pudding, first timers come out to them who've never attended any sort of school and they do great and blend in with the seasoned veterans.

I really wish you could make the Trial event. I normally don't ask this this close to an event, but what would it take to get you here for it? Dunno if we can help, but contact me off list if you're interested in looking into it. My email is in my sig line.

Linda.

[NoahBriggs]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Yes, Maggie, do come if you can. You will not regret it.

Participant in and shameless promoter of the Trial event,

[MissMaggie]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Thanks for the invite. I really do wish I could make it. The COI was lovely and I very much enjoyed my time there. Unfortunately, my life is all about timing right now. The COI happened at a time when I had both the money and the time. Right now, I've got neither, which is what for the most part keeps me from going to the right events. I can either not reenact at all because I can't get to those right events or I can go to the wrong events which are close to home and make due with what I've got. But the good news is I only have a year and a half left of school! Someone shoot me if the words "second major" ever come out of my mouth........


As for the COI itself. I'm a hands on learner. For me the event was a great way to kind of jump into immersion half way and meet people. I was surprised that there were people there that didn't seem to want to learn anything, but I certainly did. Anna and I were always going to do a mini immersion at an event using the skills we learned but life got in the way. For me it was great and I really did learn a lot. However, I moved out to go to school later that summer which is where the above comes it. I just don't have the money or time to make it to events out of the state. Mrs. Walker invited me several times to go to the last inn event as her maid which I would have loved to do had it not taken place during the school year.

[LindaTrent]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Too bad, if it was just the money issue I was going to help pay your way to the event, but if it's the time, that's something I can't help you out with.

I'm glad you enjoyed the event, and I know some other attendees did as well, but I think you missed my point. It isn't that people didn't want to learn -- I think those who attended, at least for the most part, did want to learn. They spent time and money getting there. And it was always said that if people didn't think that immersion was right for them, that was okay. The irony is that it took almost the same amount of time and effort getting there for them as it would to get to one of the better events; I say almost because the one thing they didn't have to do was prepare for the event! It was what they could get a lot of other places, paying out a little money, going and sitting and listening to people talk about reenacting, but not reenact.

But my point is simply it took the same amount of effort to put on the COI as it took me to put on SFS or the trial event. I had to worry about presenters getting the time off, their mode of transportation, participants dropping out, and various other things and in the long run I don't feel as though I really accomplished much of anything with it for the amount of hassle that it created. Heck my Friday night "welcome speech" speakers dropped out and I had to scramble to find someone else -- I'm far too shy to stand up in front of a group of people and talk. Luckily Hank came to my rescue, as usual.

What was taught is typically taught online on the various event yahoo-groups ahead of time. Links to first person stuff are sent out, chats are held in character prior to events where we're linked as families or close-knit communities. And at events we have mentors who are there to help when people don't know how to do something, and if I put all that effort into putting on a real event, people would have learned just as much for their time and effort getting there, plus they would have had the experience of attending an actual event rather than a COI.

Linda

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Learning trades are great for military and civilian folks, I highly recommend it. Not necessarily and event, but I have enjoyed volunteering at 1850s working historical farms, where I learned many skills that one would know as far, IE how to work with oxen etc... Although not an event, these sorts of places allow for great learning and immersion experiences on an individual basis.

[IowaYank]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Maggie, Are you familiar with the event at Old World Wisconsin, Sept.1 and 2nd?? We in the Ol' Sipley Mess and the ONV are putting on this event. This is an authentic event with many buildings on the property. Old World is located in Eagle, Wisconsin, which I would say is probably 2 hours tops from Milwaukee. This is an immersion event and we already have civilians planned on attending the event.We are doing an Appomattox scenerio. Defineatly a great place for civilian/military interaction. You can find out more information at www.oldnorthwestvols.org.

[MissMaggie]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Maggie, Are you familiar with the event at Old World Wisconsin, Sept.1 and 2nd??

I know. I've been reading about it and about ready to kick myself. Its the weekend right before classes start and my mom's 50th birthday. See what I mean about time and timing. Sometimes I swear I wasn't meant to reenact.

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Maggie, Are you familiar with the event at Old World Wisconsin, Sept.1 and 2nd?? We in the Ol' Sipley Mess and the ONV are putting on this event. This is an authentic event with many buildings on the property. Old World is located in Eagle, Wisconsin, which I would say is probably 2 hours tops from Milwaukee. This is an immersion event and we already have civilians planned on attending the event.We are doing an Appomattox scenerio. Defineatly a great place for civilian/military interaction. You can find out more information at www.oldnorthwestvols.org.

It is about 30 minutes from Milwaukee

[Hairy Nation Boys]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Also you should consider Athens, Missouri 2008. We need people to portray citizens of Athens. Athens at the time of the battle August 5, 1861 was a bustling town. You would not believe that today.

Please consider any good citizen impression on coming to Athens August 1-3, 2008.

If you have any other questions please feel free to PM me.

Holler

[KarinTimour]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Dear Linda:

I'm sorry to hear that you regret hosting the COI, because I do think that it had value and that people did apply the skills we learned. I have heard from some of the participants that they applied the skills in subsquent events, and I know that some also shared the skills they learned with others who didn't attend, further spreading the information we imparted.

As a professional staff trainer, I've got a bias, and do feel that training can work on several levels. Linda, you felt that the information we covered could have been taught at an event or discussed on line. And certainly I've learned some of those skills through discussions on-line and at events. But often at events we are asked to portay people who already have those skills, so how could someone say "how did you do that?" if it's something that a 19th century person would have known? Or if they have traditionally portrayed a more middle class person at more mainstream events, and now want to transtion to more working class opportunities at more authentic events? Sometimes there are chances to observe someone who is more expert in those roles (i.e. acting as cook help at the Inn with Hank as the head cook), but other times they''ll need to know some of these skills coming in.

Different people have different learning styles -- and with some of the concrete tasks we taught (how to build fires, build shelter when you've got no tent, sleep in the open in cold or wet, how to research a character, what are the different sources of information available, etc.) there are people who prefer to first watch someone demonstrate what is needed, explaining as they do the skill, then discuss it broken into steps, then have a chance to practice on their own and get feedback on how they are doing, or help if they get stuck. I didn't get to go to the "How to research and practice your first person impression" workshop, because I was teaching the fire building, sheltering, etc. workshop at the same time. But I know in the workshops I facilitated, it wasn't all talking --I've always believed that people rememeber best the things that they actually did themselves, so we broke into small groups and practiced builiding fires, building shelters/shebangs, went on a small walk to try out different ways of carrying their bed rolls, clothing, etc. if they were going to refugee. And talked before and after about the "what dd you find out/how well did that work for you." The learning wasn't all in one direction, either. Mrs. Lawson taught us all about ways to use pine cones and tow as firestarters and pulled out her fat pine bag and passed it around for everyone to examine.

When it torrentially rained on the last evening and we stampeded into the Inn, the three gentlemen who are "regulars" there provided a terrific all evening opportunity to work on spontaneous first person, one of my fondest memories of that weekend. I didn't find out until the next day why our discussion of "proper etiquette on the omnibus" so fascinated the Millerite listener. For those of you who aren't familiar with the Millerites, they believed that the world was coming to an end in the 1840s and that they would be taken to Heaven in a cosmic omnibus. One of the gentlemen in the Inn turned out to be a believer in that sect.

But to address your larger point, COIs are generally given to both increase the skills in the attendees and to encourage those who haven't tried these events to consider them. I have been reading the posts on the Szabo board about why individiual civilians or military don't go to more authentic events. And I think that one of the contributing factors is that for many people it's uncomfortable to go to an event where you don't know anyone. Yes, some of us have no compunction going to events where we don't know a soul. And others feel comfortable if they have exchanged emails or been on list serves wth people before, and only meet them in person at the event.

But I'm coming to believe that for a lot of people, it's only meeting someone in person, live, that really counts for them in terms of "do I know that person." And coming to an authentic event for the first time can be nerve wracking -- they've heard all those stories about being judged, and worry that their clothing or research or portrayal isn't going to be good enough. One thing that a COI can do is provide a less nerve wracking introduction to some of the people you're likely to meet. After all, everyone is there to learn and share. Some COIs are conducted in modern dress, so you don't even have to worry about whether your clothing is up to snuff.

I think that if the authentic side of the civilian hobby is going to grow in a larger sense that we should be thinking about how to hold "lower threashold" events, like COIs and perhaps more living histories where bits of specific skills can be encouraged. And have as an event goal that we get one or two or more people to "try it out."

Linda, you and Hank have been carrying the lion's share of the organizing of civilian events for the past few years. We need to encourage more people to also do this. Simply so there are more events out there and more different types of ways to experience being a civilian. I've been really intrigued by Hank's "where are there opportunities" discussions in the past year, and I think we need to follow his lead in getting more creative to both have experiences for ourselves and also foster the opportuntieis and the organizers who will craft the events of the future (or should I say "events of the past?")

My two cents, other's milage may vary,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[Drygoods]

Re: What do you look for in civilian events?

Good Day All,

I've really enjoyed reading this thread and hearing how folks view things. I cannot speak for the events that you mentioned because I've not attended them, and none have done any of the western events that I do know. I can suggest a few thoughts about what I've seen. My husband started a civilian event 27 years ago, a gold rush where we built a mining camp and had all sorts of people flood in from all parts of the globe. We started in tents, but over the years added our own buildings to the rural site. We started building frames and floors that bolted together and then over time were allowed to keep them up year round.

I ran a boarding house with 18 lodgers, most sleeping very close together with just canvas walls or even sleeping on hammocks hung from the ceiling, with others in beds underneath the hammock, and another on the floor tick under the bed. It was cozy. I never noticed that anyone had trouble sleeping right next to strangers, people just accepted where their beds were assigned. However, I did find that one person (a so called hardcore lady) who visited from IN had a great deal of difficulty with an outhouse and the idea that she had merely a pitcher and basin washstand. Dealing with an individual's "comfort zone" is the biggest challenge in doing living history.

It never bothered me to do without electricity, running water, or refrigeration because plenty of the homes in my rural area are still this way. If you want cell service or cable TV, you've moved to the wrong part of the country, and you just learn to get by without many modern things, and in time you don't miss them at all. My point to this is that some people can only think of LH in terms of a temporary event. I don't think that some folks can appreciate how to 'live in first person' because they never fully let go of their modern life. IMHO this is the only hindrance of having folks do LH well.

Would you be willing to live FP for any length of time? Most folks wouldn't, nor would be willing to learn completely new tasks simply to get by on a daily basis -- it's difficult. However, there is a small fraction of folks who do this and when they get together, it's amazing to watch how folks just step in and do things as though second nature, because it is. So why are COI so difficult to create? My view is that most do not want to start from scratch and with nothing but their own talent and hard work while leaving the comforts of modern life for any length of time. If the numbers of civilians who were as hard core as these 'second nature'ers' were as strong as the campaigner units, then perhaps COI events would be seen in a completely different light. OH! how I wish this were the case.