A good household service

[charliegeorge]

For a civilian impression ,what would a rich family's service contain? I do not mean the average family, I do mean a very wealthy family capable of having a full silver service.
I mean in terms of dishes, soup dishes, spoons and forks,serving cutlery,etc?
I know a 19th century service wouldn't have fish knives and forks for example. Do you have a complete list of all the pieces a service should have? or shouldn't have?

Thank you very much for your help.

[ElizabethClark]

Re: A good household service

Quick admin notice: be sure to sign your full, real first and last name to each post and response, please. If you want help configuring an automated signature, let me know through Private Message or email to elizabethstewartclark@hotmail.com or elizabeth@thesewingacademy.org

The specifics of a family's silver service will have a lot of variables. I'd suggest starting your research with mid-19th century homekeeping manuals (which are geared for the upper working and rising middle classes), combining that with estate records of wealthy families, household inventories of plantations and large estates in the North, silver merchant catalog listings, etc.

[charliegeorge]

Re: A good household service

be sure to sign your full, real first and last name to each post and response

oops forgot that, but since I live in France, I didn't think you'd really care.

I have looked up homekeeping manuals, but haven't found a list of complete cutlery sets.
I have found that one should have a Salad serving, Desert serving and fish serving set.
Than a soup spoon,knife, fork , "entremet " knife and fork and a desert,for knife, fork and spoon.
I found these informations in period home keeping manuals, late 19th century french encyclopedia and antic expertise guides.
Do you know where I could find period silver merchant listings? Nowadays silver merchants produce "style" sets but they include modern knife blades , forks and other modern items with simply one of the 19th century styles applied to the handles.

Thanks.
Dylan Flynn

[ElizabethClark]

Re: A good household service

Thanks, Mr. Flynn--the system just didn't include your signature file with the original post. I appreciate you double checking it. No matter where forum members hail from, we all like to know who we're speaking to. :)

On to silver service:

I'm assuming you're looking for American information in specific, rather than French for the same era?

In finding resources to point you toward, it would be helpful to know what segment of wealthy society you are interested in. The social conventions that influence household goods will differ somewhat if we're discussing conservative "old money" in New England versus "old money" plantation families in the South, versus "new money" industrialists or shipping "nouveau riche" eager to have the latest of everything.

Also, are you looking to find simple lists of what *was* available mid-century, or are you looking for reproductions of mid-century styles for modern use?

[charliegeorge]

Re: A good household service

I'm assuming you're looking for American information in specific, rather than French for the same era

Yes, I would like informationon the anglo saxon side of things. Like for exmple the use of the "sporks" they seem to appear in the 1800s and are sometimes made of silver, but I can't find a single example in french references, whereas they tend to appear in american and british catalogs. Were they widespread? who would use one? when? to eat what?

are you looking to find simple lists of what *was* available mid-century

That is what i'm looking for, because 19th century styles, are not appropriate for reenactment since they apply trhe "style" to anything, sometimesthe msot anachronic cutlery or simply take a model and fix on it moderne items in manner of fork and knives especially.

[jacobite8749]

Re: A good household service

Espérez ce poteau peut aider

Sporks ont été masse-fabriqués depuis au moins les tardifs 1800s. La Folgate Argent Plaque Compagnie d'Angleterre a fabriqué un jour on entre 1875 et 1900.

Aux États-Unis, plusieurs brevets pour sporks et proto-sporks a été publié sur les années. Une cuillère combinée, fourchette et couteau qui ressemble attentivement au spork moderne a été inventée par Samuel W. Francis et a publié les USA Brevet 147,119 en février, 1874. Les autres premiers brevets qui antidatent le spork moderne incluent des USA que le Brevet 904,553, pour une "cuillère Coupante", a accordé le 24 novembre 1908 à Harry L. McCoy et USA que le Brevet 1,044,869, pour une cuillère avec un bord du tined, a accordé à Frank Emmenegger en novembre de 1912. Beaucoup de ces inventions ont antidaté l'usage du terme "spork" et donc peut être considéré proto-sporks. Donné cet art antérieur considérable, le concept de base de combiner des aspects d'une cuillère et fourchette est bien établi; les brevets plus modernes se sont limités à la mise en oeuvre spécifique et apparence du spork. Ces brevets du dessin n'empêchent personne de concevoir et fabriquer leur propre version d'un spork. Exemples de brevets du dessin américains modernes pour sporks incluent nombre breveté que D247,153 a publié en février de 1978 et D388,664 brevetés publiés en janvier de 1998.

Les spork du mot sont provenus dans le début des années 1900s pour décrire de tels appareils.

C'est disponible si vous essayez une recherche du google pour SPORKS

[charliegeorge]

Re: A good household service

Sporks ont été masse-fabriqués depuis au moins les tardifs 1800s

thanks, late 1800s does it mean around 1810 or 1890?
Another question who owuld use a spork? a poor person, foot soldier or were they common as "picnic" ustensils?

[ElizabethClark]

Re: A good household service

Thank heaven for Google translating, because some of us really, really, really stunk at French in college. Rough translation?

Sporks were mass-manufactured since at least late the 1800s. Folgate Argent Plates Company of England manufactured one day one enters 1875 and 1900.

In the United States, several patents for sporks and proto-sporks was published over the years. A combined spoon, fork and knife which resembles the modern spork attentively were invented by Samuel W. Francis and published the USA Patent 147,119 in February, 1874. The other first patents which antedate the modern spork include the USA that Patent 904,553, for a “Coupante spoon”, granted on November 24, 1908 to Harry L. McCoy and the USA that Patent 1,044,869, for a spoon with an edge of the tined, granted to Frank Emmenegger in November of 1912. Many of these inventions antedated the use of the term “spork” and thus can be considered proto-sporks. Given this considerable former art, the basic concept to combine aspects of a spoon and fork is well established; the more modern patents were limited to the implementation specific and appearance of the spork. These patents of the drawing do not prevent anybody to design and manufacture their own version of a spork. Modern examples of patents of the drawing American for sporks include a patented number that D247,153 published February of 1978 and D388,664 patented published in January of 1998.

The spork of the word came in the beginning from the years 1900s to describe such apparatuses.

It is available if you test a research of the google for SPORKS

Myself, I've never seen such an item. Can anyone point toward images of mid-19th century combination utensils?

[jacobite8749]

Re: A good household service

Sorry about the French, thought it may help, perhaps not. Anyway, I thought they were a moden item until I looked them up, but I have never until now, and I have looked at a number of cutlery collections, seen one in a canteen of cutlery or dinning service.

As to what dishes, plates and so on, how rich do you want to be? Main meals could run to 18 courses, look at Mrs Beatoon for the 1860's and see her menu's. I have seen museums set with masses and masses of crockery and cutlery, glasses for every possible occassion.

Désolé au sujet des Français, pensée il peut aider, peut-être pas. En tout cas, je pensais qu'ils étaient des moden jusqu'à ce que je les aie cherchés, mais j'ai jamais maintenant jusqu'à et j'ai regardé plusieurs collections de la coutellerie ou vu on dans une cantine de coutellerie ou service du dinning.

Comme à ce qui plaque et ainsi de suite, comment riche est-ce que vous voulez être? Les principaux repas pourraient courir à 18 cours, regarder Mrs Beaton pour les 1860 et voir le menu. J'ai vu l'ensemble de musées avec masses et masses de vaisselle et coutellerie, lunettes pour chaque occassion possible.

[jacobite8749]

Re: A good household service

From what I remember about Napoleonics (served as a Prussian in 1995) spoons and knives for a soldier if you were lucky. two of the easiest items. Even forks didn't catch on that early in common folk. Forks evolved parallel to knives, but much slower. They were known prior to the American Revolution, but generally available to the well to do. The fork in evolved from the two-tine varieties to three tines, and finally the familiar four tines of today. Whilst three-tine forks are regarded as "more correct" in re-enacting circles. Whilst there is reasonable evidence to support this assertion, two and four-tine varieties were known, available, and used, indeed of those dug from the Steamboat Arabia, which sank in 1859, the four tine outnumbered the three by a large margin. Forks had the same were handles to knives, and frequently as sets.

So my reading of it a Spork would be a "novalty" item, and used by upper classes .

Charlie George was a good footballer!

De ce de que je me souviens au sujet de cuillères Napoleonics et couteaux pour un soldat si vous étiez chanceux. (fait office d'un Prussien en 1995) Deux des articles les plus faciles. Les fourchettes ne sont pas devenues populaire ce tôt avec les gens communs. Bifurque parallèle évoluée aux couteaux, mais beaucoup de plus lentement. Ils étaient connus avant la révolution américaine, mais généralement disponible aux haute société. La fourchette dans a évolué des variétés de la deux-dent à trois dents, et finalement les quatre dents familières d'aujourd'hui. Les Whilst trois-dent fourchettes sont regardées comme plus correct" dans reconstituer des cercles. Whilst il y a l'évidence raisonnable pour supporter cette assertion, deux et variétés de la quatre-dent était su, disponible et usagé, en effet de ceux creusés du Bateau à vapeur Arabie qui s'affaisser en 1859 la quatre dent a surpassé les trois par une grande marge. Les fourchettes avaient le même était des manches aux couteaux, et fréquemment comme ensembles.

Donc ma lecture de lui un Spork serait un article du "novalty" et a utilisé par les haute société.

Charlie George était bon footballeur!

[charliegeorge]

Re: A good household service

Charlie George was a good footballer!

Glad you know of him, i'm an Arsenal fan...but we are a bit out of subject.
The french translation helps , in certain words.thanks.

On the three , four or two tines debate. I found in an Antique guide, that the four tine became popular after 1770. But three and two were still used.
According to Osprey books the british soldier had a two tine fork.
But a french "ordonance" of the period orders wooden spoons distributed to the troops.
But like amny other items it depended on where and when the troops were.

As for how rich we are going , very rich, Imperial Etat Major, we have found yesterday and today , that acutally the campaign service was of the "fiddle thread" style.If you know what I mean. with just the national emblems on it. which is very common compared to the luxuries of the palace.
Problem comes in when you are looking for that style because silver makers nowadays still use it , but have slightly modified it and the tines and knife shape have changed alot. that is why we need a complete list so as to weed out the excess novlties.
And a s I said in the beginning you find things , such as fish knives and forks that did not exist at the time.
If you are interested I'll put photos here , they may helpyou as antebellum in your civil war impressions.Because one must always remember that people of an age rarely lived in their fashionable environement.
People in the thirties didn't live in all Art Nouveau furniture but in Napoleon III ufurniture mainly. Like don't live in all modern houses but amongst our grandparent's furniture.

Thanks for the info on the spork, it is an unknown item here in pre 1900s I hope I'll learn more on it.

[charliegeorge]

Re: A good household service

Oh I forgot on the Tine subject, it is in my opinion inappropriate to have serving ustensils with 4 tines, most serving -not eating- ustensils of the 19th century would be three or two tined, including salad services.
The two tine fork survives nowadays in "snail forks" but I don't think that would be of much use in the US.

[charliegeorge]

Re: A good household service

anyone point toward images of mid-19th century combination utensils?

Here:

http://www.142dpvi.org/original_142d_pictures.htm

[calico_outlaw]

Re: A good household service

November 1858, Boston merchant John Collamore Jr. & Co sold to Cpt Richard H. Tucker of Wiscasset, Maine a dinner set that included the following:
1 1/2 dozen plates dinner, 1 1/2 dozen breakfast plates, 1 1/2 dozen tea plates, 1 dozen soup plates, 2 sauce tureens, 2 sauce boats, 1 soup tureen, 4 oval covered vegetable dishes 2 sizes, 7 oval meat dishes assorted sizes, 1 round pudding dish, 2 oval deep dishes, 1 butter plate, 1 dozen custards, 1 gravy dish. Cost $22.56
The set was blue and white English earthenware.