Dress Coat Question

[CYoungJSU]

All-

I believe I can get a solid answer to a question I have been researching for several weeks on this forum. During approximately what time frame was the “day” dress (tail) coat worn? Several plates in R.I. Davis’ Men’s Garments: 1830-1900 show day dress coats being worn up to at least 1863. Penelope Byrde’s Nineteenth Century Fashion states that “the day dress coat, cut across the waist at the front, was now [1850s] less frequently worn and by 1862 had disappeared from fashion.” Finally, several daguerreotypes I have seen show gentlemen wearing dress coats dating to the 1850s+. As far as my research has shown, dress coats were increasingly being replaced for formal day wear by the frock coat by the mid-late 1840s but were still being worn. At first I thought age was a determining factor, but it seems as though even younger gentlemen were still wearing dress coats in the 1850s. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Also, what types of professions would one consider wearing for "formal day wear" vs. "informal day wear"? It seems to me that formal day wear would be the equivalent of a business suit today, whereas informal day wear would be somewhat more casual. Any information would be greatly appreciated. I have attached some photos, a drawing, and a portrait as examples (for dates, place mouse over thumbnail)

C.Y.

[CYoungJSU]

Re: Dress Coat Question

I have also added a sketch of James K. Polk's inauguration. As you notice, most of the individuals on the platform, less the military personnel, foreign dignitaries, and justices are wearing dress coats. On the left side of the sketch you see gentlemen wearing what seem to be overcoats (surtouts) and a woman with muffs.

C.Y.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Dress Coat Question

I saw the same post on another forum and I've been pondering how to answer this question for several days. I could give you a complete break-down of men's dress coat styles, cut, fabrics, analysis of originals, etc., but why do I want to just give away all my hard earned research (especially the grunt work of getting into private collections and, heaven forbid, reading books in a Library)? A proper answer to this question could take hours to write, something I don't have, so I'll try to keep it simple and give some brief generalizations from 1840-60.

First of all, the dress coats shown in the images above are not "day dress" coats, but evening dress coats, except for the engraving of Polk's Inauguration (which may show some day dress coats, it's hard to tell), big difference between the two: Evening dress coats almost never are able to button shut, although sometimes can as one image shows, day dress coats can; evening dress coats have "M" notch collars most of the time in the pre-war years, although sometimes they don't as another image shows (the one with the velvet collar), day dress coats don't have "M" notch collars; day dress coats most often have side hip flap pockets and sometimes a welted left breast pocket, evening dress coats have no exterior pockets. Day dress coats were commonly worn from roughly the 1790s-1850s after that they decline rapidly from the fashion landscape. In the 1820s the waist seam was developed, before that the forepart was cut with the tails; in the 1830s the side seam under the arm was developed to give the garment a better fit. Dark Blue evening dress coats popularly have gilt buttons and a velvet collar (Lewis Cass has a dark blue evening tail coat with a velvet collar, there are no gilt buttons though).

Internet forums shouldn't be the place to find answers to such complicated research questions. There are plenty of books written about the history of men's costume to answer all the questions you seek. I highly recommend the following: Handbook of English Costume in the 19th Century by C.W. Cunnington (this book is great he gives a complete decade by decade break-down of men's fashion, including styles, fabrics, trends, etc, and a year by year analysis within the decade), History of Men's Fashion by Farid Chenoune (another wonderful work with lots of pretty pictures).

[CYoungJSU]

Re: Dress Coat Question

Ian,


In no way am I trying to pan-handle anything. Although you are not accusing me of doing this, I do believe the remark very derogatory and unwarranted, especially since you do not know me or my research background personally. I understand what it is like to do precious research and how one is very hesitant to share their "hard earned" research with others. Believe me, I have seen many a graduate student keep information from another for fear of having research stolen or checking out all the books in the library on a subject for spite. I have worked for approximately seven years on the Spanish exploration of the Southeast as an undergraduate and graduate student and am very leery about what information I share with others. I did not intend for you to write a thesis as a response but merely to assist in my endeavors by pointing me in the right direction in order that my questions may be answered. I DO use inter-library loans very often as a student, but since this is a new subject for me, I was looking for some insight from those I consider "experts" in this field of research. I appreciate the two books you suggested. I have searched about four to five books myself, none of which have answered my questions fully. Any other books you think would be appropriate in helping me find answers will be greatly appreciated. I am not afraid of getting my pants dirty (have spent what seems like years in front of microfilm readers) and requesting books from other libraries.
C.Y.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Dress Coat Question

Mr. Young,

I'm not accusing you of pan-handling in any way shape or form. I do not know you or your research backround so I would not accuse you of anything. I am very sorry if you seriously thought I accused you of such.

Intellectual theft is a real problem on the various history forums, with so much information being shared all the time (often un-cited) it's impossible to know if someone is ripping you or somebody else off. It just makes me crazy to think that there are dishonest people out there who would take credit for other people's intellectual property.

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Dress Coat Question

For those interested in the continuing discussion of coat styles, you'll find it here:

http://thesewingacademy.org/index.php?topic=1778.0