New York Fire Department Image - EBay

[markj]

This photo is dated 1869, but undoubtedly shows members of a ladder company as they would have appeared during the Civil War. Assuming the year stated is correct, the apparent lack of foliage as well as the overcoats worn by the men indicate the photo was taken sometime during the late winter of 1868/69, early spring 1869, or the fall/winter of 1869. Another nice touch is that at least one of the firemen is holding a "trumpet."

http://cgi.ebay.com/EARLIEST-ALBUMEN-PHOTO-NEW-YORK-CITY-FIRE-DEPT-1869_W0QQitemZ110208446608QQihZ001QQcategoryZ14279QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Check it out,

Mark Jaeger

[boozie]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

Very cool image. The man with the "speaking trumpet" would be the company officer, he would yell his commands through it. I am a bit puzzled by the date for one reason, it appears to be a horse drawn tiller with a tillerman at the wheel. I didn't think this happened until the 1880's. At least this is what the Cincinnati fire museum implies about horse drawn tiller ladders.

As a side note, most major cities during the war had volunteer fire companys. Cincinnati, Ohio was the first career fire department in the nation, established in1853.

https://www.cfdhistory.com

[Hank Trent]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking that a major change occurred in the New York fire department between 1865 and 1868. It went from volunteer, full of rowdies who half destroyed the stations and loafed there all day, to a more efficient disciplined paid force. Don't know how that affected the uniforms, though.

Edited to add: Definitely a cool picture. I'm trying to read the signs on the buildings. We might even be able to figure out exactly where it was taken. Looks like the one on the right says "Chamber Safes" in the bigger letters, but I can't make out the rest.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Dignann]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

I believe that's Broadway. The sign on top of the building to the right reads:

251
Herring & ----
Champion Safes

Herring & Co. operated out of 251 and 252 Broadway, NYC.

Eric

[btfire]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

A great history, with plenty of illustrations, of the FDNY can be found in So Others Might Live: A History of New York's Bravest : The Fdny from 1700 to the Present by Terry Golway.

On a side note; The City of Columbia, SC Fire Department was in ruins after the Civil War. Firefighters being who they are, the FDNY sent crews and apparatus to Columbia to assist in training and equipping a new fire dpeartment. When the crews returned to NYC, they left a pumper for the City of Columbia to operate and brought back a memorial shield which is still on display in the FDNY Museum located at 278 Spring Street between Varick and Hudson Streets in Manhattan’s Soho district. Fast forward to 11 Sept. 2001. The devastation to the FDNY is complete and the City of Columbia sends crews to assist the FDNY in covering the city. When the crews are returning to SC, they leave a brand new pumper for the FDNY to repay a 136 year old debt.

This link has a history and photo of Ladder Company 1, organized 1772. http://nyfd.com/manhattan_ladders/ladder_1.html. The photo on the page is from 1869 and shows a very similar rig, possibly even the same rig.

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

I am a bit puzzled by the date for one reason, it appears to be a horse drawn tiller with a tillerman at the wheel. I didn't think this happened until the 1880's. At least this is what the Cincinnati fire museum implies about horse drawn tiller ladders.

The truck shown in the photograph is one of the FDNY's 65' Ladders which started being placed in service in 1869.

I am also pretty certain that the building is City Hall.

Ladder 1 was located at 26 Chamber st., which is virtually around the block from City Hall.

Update -----

The FDNY website identifies this photograph as Ladder 1 in front of City Hall http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/f_a/l01.shtml

[Csayankee]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

If my memory serves me right from my CFD Musuem newsletter and friends on the department they did not start using tiller ladders until 1880's doesn't mean that this isn't a tiller used by FDNY in 1869. Ladder trucks design by Daniel Hayes in 1868 who sold them to American La France.

[boozie]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

I am trying to find some written documentation of when the horse drawn tiller was first introduced. I really want to know when and where this type of apparatus started service .


Hank,

New York went career in 1865 after the war.

Baltimore December 1859

D.C. Fire Department May 19, 1864

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

I am trying to find some written documentation of when the horse drawn tiller was first introduced. I really want to know when and where this type of apparatus started service .

The pictured tiller ladder was manufactured "in house" by the FDNY Shops and was placed in service in December 1869. Thus far, the FDNY was the first department I can find that used the tiller.

http://nyfd.com/history/ladder_1.two.html

[boozie]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

Brian, Thanks for the good information, I like history in print.

[boozie]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

If my memory serves me right from my CFD Musuem newsletter and friends on the department they did not start using tiller ladders until 1880's doesn't mean that this isn't a tiller used by FDNY in 1869. Ladder trucks design by Daniel Hayes in 1868 who sold them to American La France.

Daniel,

That is not what I said at all. Having been trend setters in the mid 1800's and having one of the best fire musuems in the nation (my opinion), I looked at the history of the tiller on the CFD site. This is where the assessment came from.

" With the compliment of ground ladders carried on a typical rig in an urban area by the late 1800's, the size of these rigs had reached the point that it was increasingly difficult to maneuver them through the streets."

" To assist in steering the wheels at the rear of the ladder truck were changed to allow them to be turned. The tiller and tillerman, had come into existence."

[btfire]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

A big point on the fire service is this: When something is passed around as new, it has been in service somewhere else for some time. FDNY seems to have been one of the first cities to rely on aerial apparatus in the US. These designs came from Europe in many instances. NYC was rapidly growing UP when the fire service was not prepared. These rigs were used in the city by necessity. FDNY, one of the leaders in aerial apparatus, was one of the last major cities to switch to motor driven fire apparatus just as they were one of the last to switch to horse-drawn. When the volunteers were cleaning up the city during the draft riots, many pumpers were hand pulled to the fire. Of course they did a lot of FIGHTING, and not with the fire. The volunteer fire companies (often puppets of Tammany Hall) played a large roll in the draft riots on both sides of the issue. FDNY going paid was a major blow to Tammany Hall, as it took control from them.

Many immigrant soldiers from the NYC area may have spent some time around the firehouse. The young ones would have been hydrant monkeys (if I remember the term right), hiding the hydrants until their company arrived. Some of the firehouses themselves entirely left the city to fight for the Union cause.

[Csayankee]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

OK, my bad miss understod. But I still think the tiller is older then the 1880's.

Daniel,

That is not what I said at all. Having been trend setters in the mid 1800's and having one of the best fire musuems in the nation (my opinion), I looked at the history of the tiller on the CFD site. This is where the assessment came from.

" With the compliment of ground ladders carried on a typical rig in an urban area by the late 1800's, the size of these rigs had reached the point that it was increasingly difficult to maneuver them through the streets."

" To assist in steering the wheels at the rear of the ladder truck were changed to allow them to be turned. The tiller and tillerman, had come into existence."

[boozie]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

OK, my bad miss understod. But I still think the tiller is older then the 1880's.

I agree buddy, I think Brian showed us that. I was wrong too!!:(

[Parault]

Re: New York Fire Department Image - EBay

You can never remove the Firefighter that is inside of us,even when we are off duty and absent from the station.

I did some research and found that another dept that had paid profesional firefighters prior to the Civil War. The paid Dept was Alexandria,Va.

Without going into details. How many of you in the public safety field had to assist someone on the field during an event,or helped at an accident scene while in period clothing? Just a quick question of yes I did,or no not yet. I have several times in both sceneros. Sometimes the looks were comical. Just send me a pm, that way it will not stray from the subject of this forum discussion,I am truely curious.