19th Century Products Discussion

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

Canned Lobster was one of those things that left New England and made it all the way across the US. Champagne from France and Lobster is one of the things I would like to see at more events. If I could only find a Label.

Sam Hayle
Delicacy Mess

Sam,

Yep, I think it is a good point... we don't see enough unusual canned goods at events in period cans (oysters, clams, lobster, beef, etc.) probably due to food safety issues, but if one really intrepid quality vendor decides to do it... I'd buy some to open at an event with my bayonet any day... that would be a neat experience, but probably heavy in one's knapsack. ;)

Let's just hope what is inside is not as scary as what one might think!

Couldn't be worse than Iraqi food I ate...

-Johnny Lloyd

[Hank Trent]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

I've seen pepper sauce elsewhere in references before. See Hank's earlier post on this thread. I would think pepper sauce like it would have been period-correct, just not brand name.

You could bring pepper sauce to an event in a period, nondescript bottle, I'd think.

Yes, if it were homemade. But what about commercial pepper sauces sold by the bottle? Why are we assuming they'd have no brand name label?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

Yes, if it were homemade. But what about commercial pepper sauces sold by the bottle? Why are we assuming they'd have no brand name label?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Hank:

Meant referencing the "Tabasco" brand name, as it wasn't period. Period labels would definitely be neat to see for any appropriate product...

I should have said above:

"You could possibly bring Tabasco pepper sauce to an event in a period, nondescript bottle, I'd think. Get rid of the post-war brand name and the ingredients would mostly be the same as just about any prewar pepper sauce, I'd suppose. Some might debate the tabasco receipe as an authentic one, though."

But the computer won't let me edit the blane thing... infernal machine.

Sorry I wasn't clear... ;)

-Johnny Lloyd

[ElizabethClark]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

One very quick terminology note to the discussion:

A "sutler" is a very specific thing--a contractor who sold sanctioned items to military persons. As such, there is no citizen sutler.

Merchants, however, serve all sorts. So, we're talking about merchants, and what they had available, and at what costs, and when, and where. :)

And, I'll try to find some interesting bits that actually contribute to the discussion later in the week. :)

[Army30th]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

This is part of an Act instituted by the Government (US), as to the items that could be available from a "sutler", but I assume those same items could be had at a general mercantile :

(I got this from a post that Bob Sullivan had made)


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the inspectors-general of the Army shall constitute a board of officers, whose duty it shall be to prepare, immediately after the passage of this act, a list or schedule of the following articles which may be sold by sutlers to the officers and soldiers of the volunteer service, to wit: Apples, dried apples, oranges, figs, lemons, butter, cheese, milk, syrup, molasses, raisins, candles, crackers, wallets, brooms, comforters, boots, pocket looking glasses, pins, gloves, leather, tin wash basins, shirt buttons, horn and brass buttons, newspapers, books, tobacco, cigars, pipes, matches, blacking, blacking brushes, clothes brushes, tooth brushes, hair brushes, coarse and fine combs, emery, crocus, pocket handkerchiefs, stationery, armor oil, sweet oil, rotten stone, razor strops, razors, shaving soap, soap, suspenders, scissors, shoe strings, needles, thread, knives, pencils, and Bristol brick. Said list or schedule shall be subject, from time to time, to such revision and change as, in the judgment of the said board, the good of the service may require: Provided, always, That no intoxicating liquors shall at any time be contained therein, or the sale of such liquors be in any way authorized by said board. A copy of said list or schedule, and of any subsequent change therein, together with a copy of this act, shall be, without delay, furnished by said board to the commanding officer of each brigade and of each regiment not attached to any brigade in the volunteer service, and also to the Adjutant General of the Army.


Take "toothbrushes" on this list: H. N. Wadsworth received a patent for a toothbrush in the US between 1850 and 1857, but mass production didn't begin until 20 years after the war. (Toothbrushes were used in other parts of the world way before this, however).

[Drygoods]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

we don't see enough unusual canned goods at events in period cans (oysters, clams, lobster, beef, etc.) probably due to food safety issues, but if one really intrepid quality vendor decides to do it... I'd buy some to open at an event with my bayonet

Mr. Lloyd,
What you suggest takes a good deal of work/time, money, and paperwork. My husband started doing exactly what you've suggested 17 years ago. We used to sell period foods in antique bottles. The two best selling pepper sauces that we sold were the Blue Bird, and the Wells, Miller, & Prevost brands.

We also used to sell roast veal which came in a size number 10 can, which would hold nearly 4 pounds of meat depending on how tightly it was packed and how well it sealed up. Needless to say, the instructions on the lovely red painted can said to use a hammer and chisel to open (exactly like the original label).

We also did hardtack with the logo of P&M Bakery, New York. This was not one that we took strictly from historical sources, but was named for the two men that designed the logo and steel stamps to make the crackers. They were good, seldom spoiled, and could be eaten even years after baking.

We also did bottled brandied peaches, cherries, pickles, peppers, plus an assortment of liquor bottles filled with tea. Suffice it to say, we spent a good deal of work in a hired commercial kitchen, plus endless hours getting these things approved for sale. As for the meat, that one had to go out with a commercial disclaimer that they were intended for interpretive visual use only. This was to protect us from lawsuits because would you eat meat from a tin can painted with lead looking paint inside and out? Our county still has oil based paints so they had the proper look.

Yes, you can make a fantastic product, but if no one is willing to buy it, why bother? Trust me, it costs a good amount of money to purchase the correct bottles, sometimes searching for months to get enough of them to do a 'run' of any food product line. Next was the cost of the commercial kitchen, and the paperwork for the labels which my husband did a copyright, plus getting the health department to agree with you that this was a good idea for interpretive use by teaching kids history.

I would probably do it all again though, that is if I could afford to do so. What really hurt with all the work my husband did was finding rotten sutlers simply copying his labels and sticking them on any can or bottle, most of his work was hand lettered, so it took him hours what it took them minutes to copy. I suppose if my husband ever gets his sight back, I might get him to attempt it again. I'd like to think he would, as someday before I die I want those d*mn bottles out of the garage.

Mr. Lloyd, there are plenty of really talented folks out there in the world, some folks who are private collectors will amaze you with their knowledge, and the oddities that they collect. Just be careful what you wish for, you might get it.:wink_smil If I could get my husband to join the forum, I'm sure he could tell you page upon page of how to, and how much work it takes.

If you want to do it yourself, here's a tip....the best place for buying original bottles we found was Gordonsville VA, which is a l-o-n-g way from CA!:D

[David Swarens]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

Hello.

Just a note on "Pepper Sauce."


The pepper sauce (or at least some of it) from the Steamboat Arabia appears to have been small green whole chilies/peppers in vinegar, put up in aqua "cathedral" style bottles, such as those reproduced by Dog River Glassworks.

A pretty good photo of these appears on page 136 of "Treasure in a Cornfield," by Greg Hawley, one of the books on the 1856 Arabia.

This is similar to what I have seen in modern restaurants in the great state of Georgia, where we embarrassed ourselves by eating the peppers themselves, being from California.
It seems most of the locals use the vinegar as the "sauce," and reuse the chilies with fresh vinegar, so we got some attention as a result.

The color may have changed in the century and a half, but the modern ones are just about the same green.

No information on the red pulverized sauces, such as "Tabasco," (that brand I believe dated to 1868 on the label) which certainly probably represents another period practice, but rather just a note of another path to a documented period pepper sauce.

Yours for peppers,
David Swarens

[Army30th]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

"Tobasco" brand pepper sauce is made in Avery Island, Louisiana. Peppers are ground up into a mash with vinegar and salt and aged in whiskey barrels for three years.

Only been in production since 1868.

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

Hello.

Just a note on "Pepper Sauce."


The pepper sauce (or at least some of it) from the Steamboat Arabia appears to have been small green whole chilies/peppers in vinegar, put up in aqua "cathedral" style bottles, such as those reproduced by Dog River Glassworks.

A pretty good photo of these appears on page 136 of "Treasure in a Cornfield," by Greg Hawley, one of the books on the 1856 Arabia.

David Swarens

This type if pepper sauce is usually available in the ethnic section of most grocery stores and Goya makes one version.

In looking at cookbooks, the pepper sauce recipes that started appearing in the 1850 most referred to using Cayenne peppers, packing them in a bottle, adding a small amount of sugar and salt, then filling the bottle with vinegar, and letting it stand for a day or two before using. It could be replenished with vinegar until the strength of the peppers was exhausted. ( American Cotton Planter 1853). Other recipes that called themselves pepper sauce were more like a pepper relish that was a mixture of chopped peppers, cabbage, horeshradish, salt, mustard seed, spices and vinegar ( What I Know or Hints on the Daily Duties of a Housekeeper 1856); or a powder of ginger, cinnamon, black pepper, nutmeg and Jamaica pepper [allspice], cloves, and salt, which was added to brown sauces (The American Matron (1851).

It seems that Tabasco sauce was not really called "pepper sauce." In grocer's handbooks, it was not listed under pepper sauce and had a separate listing under Tabasco. At one time it was sold in powdered form, not just in the liquid. ( Grocer's Encyclopedia 1911).

[Silvana Siddali]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

The Library of Congress American Memory site has a lot of fascinating info about period labels, as well as other printed ephemera that you can download & print.

First, check out the "advertising" collections -- try searching by date or by product.

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/advertising/

You'll see some great labels for tins, boxes, or jars. To the best of my knowledge these aren't copyrighted.

While you're at the Am. Mem. site, you might also check out the ephemera (which can be searched by state and by year):

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/rbpehtml/pemap.html

[Jim Miller]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

Greetings All,
Nothing gets me excited like a lively discussion on Mid -19th Century Material Culture. It's one of the great mysterys I've been chipping away at for close to twenty years. It seems that there will always be gaps in the historic record of disposable foodstuffs, etc. Just for clarity, I'm thinking of the original look of packaging and containers. Not just their names or size or formula/recipe but what they actually looked like when they were fresh and ready to be consumed.

There have been mentions of the cargos of the Steamboat Arabia and Bertrand. They are both musts for any packaging historian but present just a partial and tantalizing look into the time period. There are no surviving paper labeled goods from the Arabia. Only the foil labels on some bottles survived. It's a little better on the Bertrand with some partial paper labels surviving but many are quite degraded.

I agree that there is a great need for accurate containers for food and other products but the two things that seems to stand in the way are #1,the lack of some vital historical information and#2, the profitability of reproducing said products.

Judith Peebles was right about recreating such things being an investment of time and energy with the possibility of being ripped off , not to mention going broke from lack of interst. As a side. I am the "M" in "P &M" Bakery. It was a long time ago and David Peebles and I created many "impression" goods and some accurate ones as well.

Where I'm leading with all this is that there are some very good opportunitys for procuring accurate labeled can and bottled goods. There's also a lot of "feels right" period "style" labeled goods passed off and embraced by the Authentic Community. My best advise for any reenactor interested in packaging history is for he or she to start contributing to the research and study of surviving evidence and then put their money where their mouth is. The best consumer is an informed consumer.

Assuming you're willing to accept the risks involved in safe food handling, you should find the "right" container and fill it yourself after it's been cleaned and sterilized. Commercial kitchens just add to the cost as Judith pointed out. Proper labels are out there but beware of recent "inventions" or poorly drawn reconstructions. There's no way around it you have to do your homework and then get out that wallet !!
Just my thoughts,
Jim Miller
In the Land of Gold
or so I've been told

[Drygoods]

Re: 19th Century Products Discussion

Jim, Amen to everything you've said! Yes, doing period labels and production isn't for the lighthearted. Sometimes you have to research and find several varieties of the same label before you learn which is the correct one, ....lots of fakes were made back then too.

The other thing is the cost. Sometimes you never know what the final cost will be until you are done with the project. For instance, you can't use dug bottles because they have oxidized. Nothing makes them look fresh again. Then, once you start production you have to accept the loss of some bottles because they might burst when filling, or have hairline cracks that you didn't see at first, or simply cannot keep a secure seal. All of these things have to be considered into your cost. So what do you do? Well, you shop around until you have 20 bottles all the same and pray like the devil that they all survive till the whole process is done and hope that your kids don't drop the crate unloading it at the event.:cry_smile

But you do the whole painful process anyway, because deep down you think it's really cool, and cheaper hobbies like yachting and polo ponies isn't as much fun.