Thoughts on this CS image?

[FloridaConscript]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Civil-War-Confederate-soldier-daguerreo-photo-w-rifle_W0QQitemZ370124189613QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item370124189613&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A2%7C294%3A50#ebayphotohosting

Fellas,
Cool image here, IMO. Any ideas on the jacket? The solid shoulder straps remind me of the Gimore jacket (3d Ala) in echoes. Notice the large belt loops and trousers stripes too.

For you firearm folk, is that a 42 and 1816?

It also seems this fellow has something in his pocket....

[lukegilly13]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

Nice pic! Good view of a commutation jacket and trousers....excellent d-guard as well. Civi rollerbuckle belt...black or at least dark eppauletts. Is that a '42 springfield? If, so we could figure his height.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

Hi,

Nice jacket. It has the cut of a Richmond Depot jacket, but the belt loops are too big. The collar is cut rather large, and is squared. Because of that, I would think that the jacket is a home made jacket, and not a Depot jacket. The trim on the bottom of the collar, appears to be lower than the collar seam. Another interesting thing, is that the trim on the collar does not seem to match the trim on the shoulder straps.

The musket looks like a M1816, but I am unsure of that. It does not look like a M1842, because of the ramrod. However, that might just be because of the light.

[garyjd]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

Cool image.What about the buttons? They look to be either wood or large coin buttons. ~Gary

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

What about the buttons? They look to be either wood or large coin buttons.

Buttons are a hard call...because it appears that the image has been tinted, and the buttons painted gold. A common feature on period images.

Good view of a commutation jacket and trousers....excellent d-guard as well....black or at least dark eppauletts.

Uggh...why must we use this term? Isn't it a possibility that this uniform could predate the period of the Commutation System? Must we succumb to that term for the jacket, because it's not readily apparant from looking at it, that we know from where it originated?

It's hard for me to tell on the epaulettes, but while they appear dark/black, I cannot tell if this is a characteristic of the jacket, or of the lighting.

Nice jacket. It has the cut of a Richmond Depot jacket, but the belt loops are too big. The collar is cut rather large, and is squared. Because of that, I would think that the jacket is a home made jacket, and not a Depot jacket. The trim on the bottom of the collar, appears to be lower than the collar seam. Another interesting thing, is that the trim on the collar does not seem to match the trim on the shoulder straps.

With regards to the uniform...there is no way I can see to positively say that the jacket "has the cut of a Richmond Depot". So many jackets were made in the "roundabout" style, and share a similar look in photographs, before examining nitty-gritty details, such as those discuss; "collar cut rather large, and is squarred", "belt loops", "trim on the bottom of the collar, appears to be lower than the collar seam", ...all these features would support that the jacket is not of the cut commonly seen from the Richmond Clothing Bureau.

Other important features of the jacket; rounded/squared jacket body, rounded/straight sleaves, epaulettes...etc.

For a thorough review of the uniform, a healthy discussion might be started by comparing this style uniform to other period images (preferably id'd), so as to narrow down a characteristic features.

Paul B.

[DougCooper]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

Buttons are a hard call...because it appears that the image has been tinted, and the buttons painted gold. A common feature on period images.



Uggh...why must we use this term? Isn't it a possibility that this uniform could predate the period of the Commutation System? Must we succumb to that term for the jacket, because it's not readily apparant from looking at it, that we know from where it originated?

It's hard for me to tell on the epaulettes, but while they appear dark/black, I cannot tell if this is a characteristic of the jacket, or of the lighting. Several of the companies had jackets very similar. Can someone please e-mail the seller to get more info?



With regards to the uniform...there is no way I can see to positively say that the jacket "has the cut of a Richmond Depot". So many jackets were made in the "roundabout" style, and share a similar look in photographs, before examining nitty-gritty details, such as those discuss; "collar cut rather large, and is squarred", "belt loops", "trim on the bottom of the collar, appears to be lower than the collar seam", ...all these features would support that the jacket is not of the cut commonly seen from the Richmond Clothing Bureau.

Other important features of the jacket; rounded/squared jacket body, rounded/straight sleaves, epaulettes...etc.

For a thorough review of the uniform, a healthy discussion might be started by comparing this style uniform to other period images (preferably id'd), so as to narrow down a characteristic features.

Paul B.

Well said Paul. I am going to research the Lousiana Crescent Regiment and some others who took the field with every company in something different.

[tarheelmilitia]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

The musket is the Model 1816. This can be told by the button head ramrod and the friction type bayonet.

[lukegilly13]

It was not a missunderstanding of the word, I judged it to be a jacket purchased during the commutation period for the following reasons:
1. It appears to me to have civilian buttons. Yes, this could be a characteristic of a home-made jacket as well..but it helps me to think not a Depot jacket.
2. It doesn't fit the man very well. The picture looks to me to be an early war image (a. It is a reverse image, and b. the nature of uniform...pre-war gun, nice haircut, etc). Not too many men gained weight during their "march to war". If someone at home had sewn this thing...I feel like they would have taken more time to get his measurements correct (as they do have access to what clothes he left behind).
3. The jacket does not appear to be topstitched...if it is, then it is not stitched very tight. To me this signifies either a mass, quick, turn out of jackets...or it was purchased at a second had store and converted to military use, or even was one of those "go out and buy a uniform" men and he got the closest thing they had. A nice loving family member from home, IMHO, would have taken more time to make a much better product and would have at least put trimming on that matched.

No, I can't say that beyond the shadow of a doubt it is a commutation jacket....but when it comes down to it, unless we have the records and documentation on a few specific jackets, we don't know 100% on ANY confederate jacket. It very well could pre-date the commutation period though... To me, this particular image APPEARS to include a young man in a commutation period uniform. The uniform meets the description of the period and has similar characteristics to the theorems of commutation jackets out there. My theory is attackable, yes...but not my wording.

2 things greatly interest me...the first being the eppaullete on the left side of the picture appears to be fuctionable and buttoned on the wrong in. The 2nd...what's going on with those sleeve cuffs?

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

I am no expert, and may get run out of this thread on a rail, but this uniform smacks of:
"Captain money bags has gone to Charlotte/Atlanta/Richmond and procurred jackets of sturdy jean with matching trousers that have a stripe down the side".
When I get home, I can pull a couple references, but this looks like a private purchase attempt at uniforming a company.
The large belt loops are interesting... any guess on pocket contents?

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

It was not a missunderstanding of the word, I judged it to be a jacket purchased during the commutation period for the following reasons:
1. It appears to me to have civilian buttons. Yes, this could be a characteristic of a home-made jacket as well..but it helps me to think not a Depot jacket.
2. It doesn't fit the man very well. The picture looks to me to be an early war image (a. It is a reverse image, and b. the nature of uniform...pre-war gun, nice haircut, etc). Not too many men gained weight during their "march to war". If someone at home had sewn this thing...I feel like they would have taken more time to get his measurements correct (as they do have access to what clothes he left behind).
3. The jacket does not appear to be topstitched...if it is, then it is not stitched very tight. To me this signifies either a mass, quick, turn out of jackets...or it was purchased at a second had store and converted to military use, or even was one of those "go out and buy a uniform" men and he got the closest thing they had.

Luke,

Please don't misunderstand me, or this as an attack. But as mentioned by you...at best these are assumptions (same as mine)...of which we should seek not to leap to conclusions without having some defined basis for doing such.

This jacket very well could be one which originated during the period of the Confederate Commutation System...however the features mentioned by you are not solely indicative of jackets during the period...the use of civilian buttons on a jacket (of which we cannot tell, since they've been gold colored, and could very well be state or some other type of martial button) does not limit the jacket to being private purchase or of the commutation system.

Reverse Image: How did we determine this?

Jacket Fit: A couple thoughts here...have you considered the possibility that not everthing from home...or mass produced by Ladies Aid Societies, or mass production shops wouldn't have had that tailored look we envision soldiers to have. If you take the time to look through Les Jenson's book fromt he GI Series; Johnny Reb, you'll see provenanced early war images that range from the expectant fine fit tailoring we expect to see all the way to the uniforms more sloppy and loose-fitted garmets as seen in this referenced image. All in all...I'd say this guys uniform appears to fit him pretty well. Additionally while not perfect works, the Confederate Faces series of books show similar trends in the ranges of uniforms seen several images, whether they be Early/Mid/Late War.

Having spent a great deal of time researching the Virginia Institute during the period 1858-1866...I can tell you that even tailored uniforms don't always have that "fine-fit" we expect them to. In a few images of VMI Cadets fromt he period we can see a progression in uniforms from finely tailored, to too small, to a little baggy and big.

While certainly the hard life of campaign and shortages produced rather lean and hardened soldiers...I see nothing in this image to support that this is the case with him...for all we know, he just enlisted, Spring/Summer 1861.

Couldn't it also be a possibility then, that this uniform might not even belong to the individual...maybe he's borrowed it for the photograph.

A nice loving family member from home, IMHO, would have taken more time to make a much better product and would have at least put trimming on that matched

Big, Big, Big assumption...my mother who has years of sewing/knitting experience, attempted to make my first shirts and socks...the results...well fortunately, I was able to move past those items after the first year in the hobby. Now my mother made these out of love, and to help get me something quick to wear...but love doesn't always = perfect finished product.

To me, this particular image APPEARS to include a young man in a commutation period uniform. The uniform meets the description of the period and has similar characteristics to the theorems of commutation jackets out there. My theory is attackable, yes...but not my wording

Besides the buttons and fit of the uniform, we still haven't defined what "characteristics to the theorums" are of jackets procurred through the commutation system. What descriptions of the period do you have, that haven't been shared yet?

2 things greatly interest me...the first being the eppaullete on the left side of the picture appears to be fuctionable and buttoned on the wrong in. The 2nd...what's going on with those sleeve cuffs?

Interesting Observation...I hadn't caught that.

The sleeve cuffs look to possibly have some of the same, white tape applied as is seen on the collar. Note a possibility certainly exists that this tape was applie at manufacture, however it is equally as possible, that tape was later applied by the individual...unable to clarify without having the jacket at hand...or a letter documenting such...more assumptions/possibilities.

No, I can't say that beyond the shadow of a doubt it is a commutation jacket....but when it comes down to it, unless we have the records and documentation on a few specific jackets, we don't know 100% on ANY confederate jacket. It very well could pre-date the commutation period though...

Very true statement...without documentation of when/where this individual recieved the jacket...it would be near impossible to determine where the origin of the jacket lays. Therefore our best option then being to define characteristics of this uniform; fabric, trims, buttons, epaulettes, belt-loops, belt, weapons (potential studio props), jacket cut (yes defining what can be seen, rectangular/rounded body)...etc. Then using these tools to search out other known/provenanced images that show a match for the uniform, weapon, background...etc. Perhaps then we could at least narrow down a more concrete base for the origin of the image.

An excellent example of this is some of the work being done by Mr. Rusty Hicks and Mr. Adam Scher. They're in the process of collecting images/information on Piedmont Battle Shirts Militia Uniforms of Central Virginia, 1859-1862. An example of their work can be seen through the following link to Historic Sandusky's website:

http://www.historicsandusky.org/uniforms.htm

This is turning up to be an excellent discussion on the uniform at hand...and perhaps we all (myself included) should try and stick strictly to the image at hand under analysis, before interjecting our thoughts as to the origin of the uniform, be it a product of home-sewing, private-purchase, product of the Commutation System...etc. Let's try and focus to catalog the features evidenced in the image...and then strive to find other examples of this uniform in other examples.

Paul B.

[David Fox]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

Don't have much intelligent to add except, as I understand it, men's clothing buttoned on the same side in 1861 as it does now, so: if this be the case, this is not a reverse image(?)

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

Hallo!

"...as I understand it, men's clothing buttoned on the same side in 1861 as it does now, so: if this be the case, this is not a reverse image(?)

May be, possibly...

That is more of a "convention" than an "absolute" in the 19th century.
Meaning, if it were a "home made" or from an "unconventional" local tailor- it may or may not follow the male-female fashion convention (which was not as "set" as it is now).

The same is true for how the trouser fly opens.

And also true for the convention of males parting thier hair on the left and females on the right.

So, at any rate, a possibility but not a certainty.

Here is the image "flipped:"



IMHO, I would say YES the original image is reversed as "evidenced" by the opening of the jacket AND the trousers BUT supported by the bayonet on the musket which is on the correct side when the image is corrected. (and to lesser extent if he was "right-handed" teh knife in his right hand).
However, against "convention" his hair is parted on the right. ;) :)
So, I let the musket's bayonet answer the question.

Curt

[lukegilly13]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

Paul,
Thanks for the post! You've got some really good points. I love to have discussions like this because it always spurs me to find things in the image that I wouldn't have normally noticed! You're right about he fit of clothes...after I think of it, I've had some pretty uncomfortable sweaters in my day and I didn't go anywhere!

A question on the shoulder straps....Is it possible he torn one loose and it was reconnected via the button on that end? Has anyone seen a period image with the button on the "downhill" end of an epaulette?

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

Does anyone else see somthing between his musket hand and trouser leg? It appears to be more than a shadow, almost like he has a small strap hanging out of his pocket?

i like the trousers stripes.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Thoughts on this CS image?

Bryant,
I saw that as well....but I thought it was just me....
could it be a watch fob?