What carbine position is this trooper using?

[DaveGink]

Found this trooper in a photo on the library of Congress site. It's from a larger image titled: Prospect Hill, Virginia. Signal station at camp of 13th New York Cavalry.

I'm curious what position he is holding his carbine in. It doesn't seem to conform to any positions I've found in a cavalry manual, and wondering if he is just doing an "arms at will". However he appears to be on guard duty.

[DaveGink]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

And no, the fact that it's 'similar' to Right Shoulder Shift – Arms has not escaped me. ;)
However I've never seen that in any cavalry manual of arms (did I miss it somewhere?). And if he were doing it per infantry manual of arms, it would be incorrect.

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

Dave,

I believe that position is what is commonly known as the "hardkewl carry". The photo of the CS soldiers at a halt in Frederick, MD during the Antietam campaign has a number of guys with their arms in this position, ever since this has been the position of choice for the fellows who like to patrol sutler row.

[IowaYank]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

I don't know about the hardkewl carry fashion, but it is a very comfortable way of balancing any arm. (carbine or musket)

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

The postion the fella is carrying is comfortable much more so than an infantry musket in right shoulder shift as a carbine is 1/2 the weight, but Dan I'd much rather carry my carbine flipped as when mounting... it leaves the hands free to carry of treats from Sutler Row....;) Pass the cotton candy and funnel cake...

[DaveGink]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

So the preparatory command is "Hardkewl Carry", and the command of execution would be "ARMS". :)

Seriously though, Carry Arms can get pretty tiring after a while, even with a carbine. I can see why the trooper would be using a position such as that if he has the choice. In any regards, it's interesting.

[Tom Craig]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

Dave,
Come on...that is CLEARY a picture of a reenactor! Look at how sloppy his uniform is, and how his hat brim has a baseball cap style curve to it! LOL

Seriously; this position isn't in any cavalry manual, it's just a fella mugging for the camera. It is interesting to me that the guy appears to be pretty small if you look at the relative size of his holster and his carbine to him.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[GrumpyDave]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

Looks like the "this is comfortable to me," method of carrying arms.

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

You guys tear me up. Don't you know that this guy is a farb? He carries his rare model 1864 1/2 Louisville Carbine in this position because he's guarding the dugout of the famed 13th New York Yankees Cavalry. Just look at the brim of his cap. It screams farb! But if this guy is who I think he is, he had a great season and helped the 13th New York win the penant in '65 against Brooklyn. I think he did triple duty at the 4th annual Blue/Gray Homerun Derby at shortstop, first base and forward picket. He was about to pitch a no-hitter in '63, but lost his middle finger to Atlanta at an away game. That's when he got moved to shortstop.

[Mark Choate]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

Well, that settles it.................no more "Oh be joyful" for Larry.

Mark

[cprljohnivey]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

On Guard duty... per the manual, are you not allowed to carry the weapon any comfortable way you like (within reason) so long as its not on the ground?

[DaveGink]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

That's a really good point that for some reason I didn't consider. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a trooper on guard is only required to be at carry arms if an officer is present. I don't recall any close to him in the photo.

[Silas]

Duties and compliments

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a trooper on guard is only required to be at carry arms if an officer is present. I don't recall any close to him in the photo.

I've not seen that anywhere. Per Major Gilham :

Sentinels must keep themselves on the alert, observing everything that takes place within sight and hearing of their post. They will carry their arms habitually at support, or on either shoulder, but will never quit them. In wet weather, if there be no sentry-box, they will secure arms.

[ ]

Sentinels will halt, come to attention, and present arms to general and field officers, to the officer of the day, and to the commanding officer of the post. To all other officers they will carry arms.

When a sentinel in his sentry-box sees an officer approaching, he will stand at attention, and as the officer passes will salute him, by bringing the left hand briskly to the musket, as high as the right shoulder.

The sentinel at any post of the guard, when he sees any body of troops, or an officer entitled to compliment, approach, must call : "Turn out the guard"; and announce who approaches.

Guards do not turn out as a matter of compliment after sunset ; but, sentinels will, when officers in uniform approach, pay them proper attention, by facing to the proper front, and standing steady at shouldered arms. This will be observed until the evening is so far advanced that the sentinels begin challenging.

Gilham, para. 749
You can also find it quoted in paragraphs three and seven of my handy free booklet called, Guards, Pickets, Camps and Marches. Link : http://www.zipcon.net/~silas/Drill/guidespickets.htm

[DaveGink]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

Ah yes, thank you! The Sentinels part must be where I recalled "Carry Arms" from. Interestingly another photo of the 13th New York Cav (attached), at their headquarters, shows a trooper (apparently standing guard) at the position of 'Carry Arms' with officers in close proximity. Maybe that Regiment was a bit more relaxed. ;)

[Tom Craig]

Re: What carbine position is this trooper using?

Dave,
You know, I've seen that 2d photo MANY times, but there are a couple of neat details that I picked up looking at it blown up.
1) The trooper on the viewer's right of the image is holding a horse with a Jennifer saddle. It could be one of the officer's horses, but based on his position, and the fact that there is another enlisted man with a horse, it stands to reason that it is his.

2) The height of the horse on the left of the image relative to the trooper holding him. Now THAT would be a stretch while mounting by the numbers!

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry