PH Collectable or not.

[agrnbrt]

I have always been curious as to why folks in this hobby take a true collectable firearm and ruin it by 'defarbing'. Perhaps it's the lack knowlage or understanding of the value of a Parker Hale 2nd generation musket. Or that they don't understand that these (the Parker Hales) were limited when made in the 70's and command a very high premium on the firearms market. I can understand to some extent doing to a euro or a navy arms reproduction musket. But when you take a actual 2nd generation Parker Hale, that's a prime piece, and ruin it...I can only ask, why?

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Parker Hale FS

I can see where many (re)enactors might wrestle with that sometimes...here's what you have to consider in the final analysis. Are you going to collect historic reproductions that are no longer made, or use that same historic reproduction in the field? If you are going to collect the Parker-Hales, or the Dixie Miroku 1861s, etc then it makes sense to leave them "as-is." However, if you are going to use them in the field, they still need some historical feature modification to be remotely similar to type of rifle-musket used by both sides in the Civil War, at least cosmetically.

I fall on the side of de-farbing them and using them in the field, where they (still) perform head and shoulders above the later Italian made reproductions. I empathize with your concern where "original" weapons are taken into the field, but reproductions? Make 'em right, use them and enjoy them. Keep in mind, there are guys like John Wickett, for whom even the best reproductions won't cut it. He uses mostly originals or "put togethers" from original parts.

[WILSONCREEK61]

Re: Parker Hale FS

I have always been curious as to why folks in this hobby take a true collectable firearm and ruin it by 'defarbing'. Perhaps it's the lack knowlage or understanding of the value of a Parker Hale 2nd generation musket. Or that they don't understand that these (the Parker Hales) were limited when made in the 70's and command a very high premium on the firearms market. I can understand to some extent doing to a euro or a navy arms reproduction musket. But when you take a actual 2nd generation Parker Hale, that's a prime piece, and ruin it...I can only ask, why?

As I stated in the original post 'as it came to me' So, I can't really answer your question. However, I believe Mr. Barry makes a valid point.

[agrnbrt]

Re: Parker Hale FS

As I stated in the original post 'as it came to me' So, I can't really answer your question. However, I believe Mr. Barry makes a valid point.

Good Sir I did read your post and I did not direct the question to you. It was a general question to those who willingly destroy fine weapons by defarbing them.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Parker Hale FS

Maybe I'm out of the loop here. But why collect 'Historic Reproductions' when collecting Originals is far more appealing?

After all... which would I hold more valuable? A repro of an Enfield made by Parker-Hale some 30 - 40 years ago, or an original enfield made 140+ years ago ?

Beyond that... what Mr. Barry said.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Parker Hale FS

Hallo!

On the Sliding Scale of Imperfection, some lads strive to be as "authentic" as is possible, chosing for their Mental Pictures not to use a weapon that was not used in the Civil War War.

To use a weapon that was not used in the Civil War, is farbery, and contrary to AC standards.

One can easily spend $1500 to say $2000 to have and use a reproduciton that is a true reproduction of a ACW era firearm.
Also, lads in the 18th century can spend $1500 to say $6,000 for the same.

It is not about the money, it is about the pursuit of the authenticity.

I live in the wrong area, as Parker Hale Parker Hales here sell and are purchased for nearly the same or less than a new de-farbed Italian Enfield.

Curt

[agrnbrt]

Re: Parker Hale FS

Maybe I'm out of the loop here. But why collect 'Historic Reproductions' when collecting Originals is far more appealing?
After all... which would I hold more valuable? A repro of an Enfield made by Parker-Hale some 30 - 40 years ago, or an original enfield made 140+ years ago ?

Yes you are. What I am saying has nothing to do with a true 1853 PH Enfield vs. a 1975 PH Enfield. What I am saying is that a collectors firearm should not be abused, defaced or destroyed to make it look like something it still is not. Pure and simple a 2nd generation PH Enfield is a beautiful and valuble firearm. If you have a 2nd generation PH don't crp it up with fake markings and the like. Just sell it and then go buy and de(farb)face a euro or navy arms.

[benjaminmcgee]

Re: Parker Hale FS

Does this mean my smoothbore paki-enfield will be a collectors item in 20 years:wink_smil

Ben McGee

[Jimmayo]

Re: Parker Hale FS

What I am saying has nothing to do with a true 1853 PH Enfield vs. a 1975 PH Enfield.

Are you aware that there were no Parker Hale Enfields made in the Civil War? They didn't start making the reproductions until the 1970s and then they picked the wrong pattern enfield to copy. So technically if you want to take a Parker Hale and use it for CW reenacting, to be correct you will have to make some modifications.

This whole discussion boils down to what each individual considers "collectable" and there is nothing wrong with that.

I am thinking of cutting my 1st Generation PH down for Cav. use. I already had it defarbed.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Parker Hale FS

I have always been curious as to why folks in this hobby take a true collectable firearm and ruin it by 'defarbing'. Perhaps it's the lack knowlage or understanding of the value of a Parker Hale 2nd generation musket. Or that they don't understand that these (the Parker Hales) were limited when made in the 70's and command a very high premium on the firearms market. I can understand to some extent doing to a euro or a navy arms reproduction musket. But when you take a actual 2nd generation Parker Hale, that's a prime piece, and ruin it...I can only ask, why?

Good Sir I did read your post and I did not direct the question to you. It was a general question to those who willingly destroy fine weapons by defarbing them.

Yes you are. What I am saying has nothing to do with a true 1853 PH Enfield vs. a 1975 PH Enfield. What I am saying is that a collectors firearm should not be abused, defaced or destroyed to make it look like something it still is not. Pure and simple a 2nd generation PH Enfield is a beautiful and valuble firearm. If you have a 2nd generation PH don't crp it up with fake markings and the like. Just sell it and then go buy and de(farb)face a euro or navy arms.

agrnbrt,
How about signing your posts as you agreed when signing up for this forum!

besides it is a repro and not and original. Granted a no longer produced repro! (that is the closest to an original that we ca get and use for ACW reenacting) I wouldn't want to use/abuse an original in the way we do! It is still a PH after defarbing!

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Parker Hale FS

HeII, some people collect matchbooks and consider their covers a form of art. Nothing wrong with whatever you want to collect that isn't illegal, but you are not destroying a reproduction firearm by making accuracy modifications to it. I couldn't recommend using any out of the box Parker Hale if you were serious minded about "getting it right" any more than an Armi Sport or Euroarms. Interestingly, those two are actually copies of the Parker Hale, not an original P53 type IV, which the Parker Hale is a copy of. The Italians even copied the mistakes that Parker Hale made.

Here are some reasons a vintage Parker Hale made in Birmingham is preferred (to defarb):

1. Closer to the original P53 weight and proportions
2. Made in Birmingham, England like quite a few originals
3. Barrel is .577, all the Italian copies are .58
4. Lockplate is bone charcoal case hardened, not just cosmetically colored to look like it.
5. Stock is closer to the original size and contours...but still needs work and the right finish.

The Parker Hale firm was started in the 1880s, and never made Civil War-era P53s up until the reproductions of the 1970s, and they ceased in around 1990. They sold the "nameplate" to Euroarms who continued to make a "Parker Hale" marked reproduction P53, but it is not the same as the one Parker Hale made in the 1970s-80s. Roughly up to serial # 15000 were British made and afterwards Italian. As many already know Parker Hale was given the Enfield patterns to copy which were the ones used at RSAF, in other words the type IV machine made for the British Government, not type III used by London and B'ham for commercial sales. A wonderful reproduction military arm to be sure, but not one which had any US Civil War provenance.

About the only suitable use for a Parker Hale out of the box is perhaps an early 1860s British Volunteer militia?

[Marine Mike]

Re: PH Collectable or not.

The defarbers have reduced the number of untouched PH Enfields raising their collector value. Sounds like a deal to make both parties happy.
Mike Stein

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: PH Collectable or not.

Hallo!

Thanks, but there is no need to add on any more signature violations in this case.

It would appear that the signature and automatic signature features are not working for some reason.
And it has been kicked up to the Admins for investigation and resolving.

Danke.

I had a friend, who before switching to collecting originals, set out to have a collection of all of the reproductions.

IMHO, the current values of Parker Hale Parker Hales is not so much a matter of "collectibility" or "collectability" but rather a factor of:

1. inflation of the US Dollar that now takes more 2010 dollars than it did 1980 dollars to buy the same gun

2. the law of "Supply and Demand" where PH PH's being out of production for years makes them "worth" (to a current buyer looking to "authenticize") more now than they were 20-30 years ago.

An interesting but unprovable discussion is looking at the numbers of reproduction of all manner of ACW weapons produced, and the numbers long-standing vendors claim to have sold in the past 50-some years.
Where are they all? In closets, attics, basements, garages, or under beds? In land fills?

Curt

Whose brother-in-law bought a Parker Hale PH "Naval Rifle" for his two event career in the CW in 1981. It has been his brother's favorite BP deer hunting rifle since 1983.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: PH Collectable or not.

Well, Herr Kammeraden consider that some of us have more than one firearm...
Even so, I have often wondered the same thing. I think some gents develop an
attachment to their musket and keep it long after they hang up their brogans.
The closest thing to a liquid investment, meaning easily convertible to cash
is a de-farbed Enfield.

I don't know that there is any real shortage of repro Parker Hales floating around.
There seems to be some offered on gunbroker.com or auction arms somewhat regularly.
I bought three this year so far, Watts has defarbed two of them and the other one I sold
as-is, having grown tired of the wait to get it done. Good weapon, if you want an
Enfield...more of a US Model smoothbore musket man, myself.

[David Fox]

Re: PH Collectable or not.

I must confess (and this is limited to my personal observation) I've never seen a 'collection' of Parker-Hales at gun or relic shows, never heard of anyone purposely accumulating them, but don't doubt it's a possibility. A key to any true collectable: is there a book out there deliniating variations? I've yet to see one. Certainly P-Hs offer more interest to me than the unlikely, wretched Beanie Babies as objects of aquisitive lust.
Many years ago a company called 'Harpers Ferry Arms' fabricated a very few problematic replicas of M.1861 rifle-muskets and second model Maynards. They were externally handsome and are genuinely rare. I recall at a majour Louisville gunshow one of their Maynards offered at three times the price of another several tables away. The only true value of any replica is what someone would pay: my wise younger brother's sage observation relating to another object of male interest seems germaine: "One man's queen is another man's sweat hog". You want to hide a Parker-Hale replica in a safe away from the pernicious effects of direct sunlight, fine. You want to defarb and campaign it, OK. They're objects with no history, look sharp, shoot really well, and, untouched, certainly appreciate in value more rapidly than a battered example. Thus I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around why one should feel guilty about using a P-H for its intended purpose if the only consideration is one personal to the owner, to wit: a somewhat deminished appreciation in value. I own a '62 Corvette fuelie. Zora Duntov died WANTING me to drive it. So I do. With a smile on my face and no guilt in my bosom....